My Ph Keeps Dropping

drobbyb

Bowhead
Joined
Sep 22, 2008
Messages
3,251
Reaction score
0
Location
Easley, South Carolina USA
With all the posts lately about pH crashes and low pH problems, ~~waterdrop~~ and I have written this article to help newcomers with what options may be available for them. So without further ado, here it is!




My pH Keeps Dropping, What Can I Do Now?



Tap water can vary in pH and hardness, and all tap water is not equal. Some people are blessed with tap water that is perfect for keeping fish, and some are not. In my case, my water comes out of the tap with a pH of 6.8 and a GH and KH of less than 1. This results in a wildly swinging pH, and if left uncontrolled, can be dangerous to my fish and other inhabitants. If the pH crashes (drops to 6.2 or below) the nitrifying bacteria may be shocked, temporarily stopping their processing altogether but then slowly resuming the processing at a much lower rate.

This will leave you with a buildup of ammonia and/or nitrite. As we all know, ammonia and nitrite(NO2) are toxic to fish, and this situation demands immediate attention. Raising KH (Carbonate Hardness) is a way to resist rapid changes to pH. This is referred to as "buffering" the water. The minerals that buffer (carbonate and bicarbonate ions) can be used up as the bacteria produce more nitrate(NO3) and the acid that goes with it.

Thankfully, there are a few things we can do to prevent this. Adding baking soda to the water can raise your KH and in turn increase your pH. At first glance this seems like it would be the answer, and during fishless cycling it is a good thing, but if you have fish in the tank this can be problematic. Baking soda raises the KH and pH very very fast. Too quick of a change in hardness can harm your fish, and you only want to raise their pH and hardness in small increments over the course of several days or a week depending on how much you want to change it. Baking soda also leaves Sodium in the water, which is less desirable than the Calcium left behind by crushed coral. So baking soda is our method of choice for fishless cycling, but not for fish-in situations.

Commercial products like pH up will also raise your pH, but they do nothing to buffer the water and therefore are a temporary fix. They change the pH too rapidly just like baking soda.

Crushed coral (or aragonite or crushed seashells) will do the same thing, but at a rate that is predictable and slow enough as to not hurt your fish. Crushed coral in an acidic environment will slowly dissolve and release calcium carbonate (CaCO3) into the water column buffering your water. Our method of choice with fish, crushed coral is placed in mesh bags (so it could be easily separated if you change your mind) and placed in the filter (flowing water is needed for it to dissolve significantly.) This sounds great and all, but there is one problem. Adding crushed coral will over time raise your pH, but that's not what we are aiming for. Our ultimate goal is to prevent a pH crash. If you go too long between waterchanges, you risk harming your inhabitants when you do a waterchange. There is a delicate balance between time and waterchange frequency. In my case, I can go exactly 7 days between waterchanges. Beyond 7 days, my water change might shock the fish with too much change in hardness.

To maintain this system and avoid a hardness shock to the fish you need to keep your pH close to your tap water, thus large waterchanges (50%) are in order. You will need to test frequently to find your balance. Work on getting a feel for how many days it takes to reach a 0.5 pH change. This is the balance point and indicates how long you can go between water changes.

Once you get past the serious decision of whether to alter your tap water at all, the actual use of crushed coral is not hard. Bags labeled crushed coral at your local aquarium shop are usually a mix of broken pieces of coral and shell (or aragonite) (also known as marine substrate.) Buy a mesh bag or use a thin sock foot or nylon to hold the crushed coral. Start with a small handful that’s been rinsed and place it in your filter. You can also hang it out in the filter flow in the tank but this will be significantly less effective. During filter cleans, the crushed coral needs to be cleaned of debris. The more white the crushed coral is, the better it will dissolve. This method is also all natural, and lasts for years.

So you can see, making permanent changes to solve low pH problems takes dedication and should not be attempted unless you are sure that you can change the water when it is time. If for some reason you miss a waterchange, you should perform a series of small waterchanges to get the pH and hardness back low enough. This process should take place over a few days.

In conclusion, pH, KH (as well as GH) and water changes play an important role in creating a stable fishkeeping environment. Understanding both the benefits and limitations of the use of crushed coral and baking soda is a useful skill for many aquarists.




A very special thank you to ~~waterdrop~~ who wrote this article with me! You were a huge help and this article wouldn't have been the same without you!
 
Very good you two! Well done! Should be Pinned! :good:

I wrote something similar a while ago, but probably not as good as you guys! lol

http://www.fishforums.net/index.php?showtopic=307725

Here is is:



The Effect of pH on Autotrophic Bacteria (The bacteria in our filters that process ammonia and nitrite)



*It is really important that you know how the Nitrogen cycle works before reading this article. You can read about the Nitrogen cycle here.*

There are two different types of bacteria in our filters. One type, which utilizes ammonia for a food source, is nitrosifyers from the genus Nitrosomonas, while the other type that utilizes nitrite for a food source are called Nitrifying bacteria, from the genus Nitrobacter. Just as long as we know the real names and where they come from, I will be referring to the two different types of bacteria as either Nitrosomonas for the ammonia bacteria, and Nitrobacter for the Nitrifying bacteria. We can also refer to both of these types of bacteria as Autotrophic Bacteria as a whole.

Autotrophic Bacteria are extremely important in our tanks. They not only keep the ammonia and nitrite levels down, but they also produce nitrate, as an end result to the nitrogen cycle, which plants can utilize for an extra source of nutrients. Autotrophic Bacteria are essential to all life because they are the primary producers at the base of all food chains. Autotrophic Bacteria are everywhere; they are in the very water we drink and the water we swim in when we go to the lake. So, it is in our best interest to have ideal environments in our tanks in order to allow these bacteria to thrive and colonize. This will allow our tanks to run to their full potential! The fact is there are multiple factors that can affect how these bacteria grow. When we cycle a tank, especially if it is for the first time, most people want the tank to cycle as fast as possible so they can add fish. However, there is one factor that I am going to talk about, and that is how the pH of the water supply, you are using for your tank, can affect the colonization of these Autotrophic Bacteria.

All water has a pH level, either it is acidic, neutral or basic, there is going to be a level of which your pH is. An acidic pH is a pH level that is below 7.0, while a basic pH level is above 7.0, and yes, you guessed it, a pH of 7.0 is neutral. Most fish can adapt to a fairly wide range of pH, however; Autotrophic bacteria can do the same, but in most cases it takes a long time for the Autotrophic bacteria to adapt to a lower level of pH. Instead, depending on the pH level of your water, your Autotrophic Bacteria are going to act differently, until they have adapted to a certain pH level. Even further, it takes time for the Autotrophic bacteria to adapt to a pH level outside their normally operated pH range, in which case if your pH drops down below 6.0, you may experience some problems. Having a pH of 8.0-8.4 is optimal for the colonization of these bacteria, but not required, especially if the temperature is at or around 84 degrees F, or 29 degrees C. It is this pH range that is going to yield the greatest growth rates for the Autotrophic Bacteria. While most water has a pH in the mid 7’s, this is still really good and will still have fairly good growth rates. Between a pH of 6.6 to 7.0, the growth and consumption rates of these bacteria will gradually decrease, but will still yield very good results at the processing of ammonia and nitrtie . At a 6.5 pH level, Nitrosomonas growth is inhibited. This means that the process of breaking down ammonia is going to be extremely slow. The bacteria at this state are just processing enough ammonia to stay alive, not grow or colonize to meat higher ammonia levels. Also, all nitrification is inhibited if the pH drops to 6.0 or less. This means that the nitrite processing will be extremely slow as well. So, with this is mind, it is extremely important to know the pH of your tank, and keep a close eye on it. If the pH drops close to 6.5, immediate action should be taken. Note: when the pH drops this low, and the Autotrophic bacteria drastically slow down the processing of ammonia or nitrite, this does not mean the the Bacteria have died off at all. In fact, this means that the Bacteria have simply gone into a "dormant" state where they process the ammonia and nitrite at extremely slow rates, and when the pH raises back up above 6.5 or so, the bacteria will then resume production on ammonia and nitrite at their previous capacity. However, like I stated before, Autotrophic bacteria can, and will adapt to lower pH levels, but it takes time to do so. Under optimal conditions, Nitrosomonas may double every 7 hours and Nitrobacter every 13 hours. More realistically, they will double every 15-20 hours.

How softness or hardness of water can effect the pH.

The pH of water is always prone to changes or fluctuations, especially when we start to cycle a tank. When ammonia is added to the tank, the pH can take some nasty turns, which could ultimately effect the Autotrophic Bacteria. When water is hard, or has a high mineral content, the water has a higher buffering capacity. This means, since the water is harder, that the pH is not as susceptible to changes, as if the water was soft. If you have soft water, this means that the mineral content in the water is low, or has a low buffering capacity. This will usually make the pH drop, or make the pH fluctuate a lot more. As the cycle progresses, and you start to produce nitrate more and more in your tank, your pH might start to drop. As nitrate, the end product in the nitrogen cycle, is a little more acidic, meaning it may drive your pH down. Depending on how soft your water is, the nitrate that is being produced could potentially make your tank have a pH crash. A pH "crash" is when your pH drops below a safe level for the Autotrophic bacteria, usually 6.5, and your Autotrophic bacteria begin to slow down or stop in production all together. If this happens, follow the steps below to raise the pH level. A pH of 6.5 or less is not necessarily unsafe for fish however. Certain fish will thrive at lower pH levels, however; these Autotrophic bacteria will go into a dormant state if the pH drops below that point, usually it is a pH of 6.0 or less for extreme cases.

How can I have fish that thrive in a pH below 6.0, where the Autotrophic bacteria's production rates have decreased, if the ammonia level is going to be high because of the lack of production?
Since plants use Ammonia as a source of nutrients, having a really heavily planted tank will prevent the ammonia level to rise above a safe limit. Also, if you start off cycling your tank will a low pH, the bacteria within the tank will adapt to the lower pH value, but to do so, it will take a lot longer than having a pH above 6.0-6.5.

What are some ways to raise the pH of my tank water if it drops too low?

A large water change may be the best option if you are cycling the tank. When you do a water change, the pH in your tap water will be higher than that in the tank. So, when the new water enters the tank, the two different pH levels will reach an equilibrium. This means that the higher pH in the tap water and the lower pH in the tank will average out to a new pH, hopefully higher than before. However, since your pH dropped low in the first place, that is a good indicator that your water may have a low buffering capability, or low KH. The following steps will shows ways to raise the KH of your water, ultimately raising the pH. With constant changes in the ammonia level during a cycle, the pH can be really susceptible to change. Until you get the tank cycled and your ammonia level zeroed out, the pH will most likely change a little. This is not to worry about that much, because after the cycle the pH should be pretty stable. Here is what to do if the pH is still unstable after the cycle. pH, more or less, has a direct relation with the hardness of your water. It is really important to purchase a GH/KH test kit to know the hardness of your water. If you have soft water, your pH is going to be more susceptible to fluctuations. This means, minor things added to the tank, as little as an ammonia spike, can change the pH of your water. It is best to raise the hardness of your water a little, which would make your pH less susceptible to fluctuations. There are a couple ways to raise the pH and hardness, and they are adding sodium bicarbonate (baking soda), sea shells, limestone rocks, chunks of marble or some little pieces of coral to the tank. You can even buy substrate, which is made ideally for Cichlids, that contains parts of sea shells. Any of these can increase the pH of water.

In conclusion:

It is best not to let the pH drop too low, which is usually around 6.5 or lower. If the pH drops that low the Autotrophic bacteria's production rates are going to decrease dramatically until the bacteria have adapted to the lower pH level. Like I said earlier, this takes time to do so, so it's best not to let the pH drop that low in the first place. In other words, if you are cycling a tank, and the pH drops that low, the cycle will most likely stall.

Hopefully now you will have a basic idea on how the pH level can affect how the Autotrophic Bacteria colonize and process ammonia and nitrite within a tank.




Sources:
NItrifying Bacteria
Ways to raise pH and Hardness
Autotrophic Nitrifying bacteria at low pH


-FHM

All text in this post are copyright fatheadminnow, 2009.

I am still making changes to it.

-FHM
 
I really like this article by DRobbyB and WD and the one by FHM adds another dimension to the discussion by putting it into the perspective of a cycle.
 
FHM, It is currently my understanding that sources like the Fritz article have now been out of date for a while concerning the chemolithoautotrophic bacteria that convert nitrite to nitrate. Most current sources now consider Nitrospira to be the bacteria doing the job, not Nitrobacter as was once thought and as still frequently repeated in the literature. This was one of the main findings of Hovanec and DeLong in their work. This is also starting to be understood in the wastewater treatment plant literature, where Nitrobacter was previously thought to dominate the role but where Nitrospira is beginning to be now understood. The startup of bacterial colonies in "reactors" in the WWTP arena is the most likely area where some fresh new applied science ideas may spin off to our benefit as water hobbyists.

~~waterdrop~~
 
FHM, It is currently my understanding that sources like the Fritz article have now been out of date for a while concerning the chemolithoautotrophic bacteria that convert nitrite to nitrate. Most current sources now consider Nitrospira to be the bacteria doing the job, not Nitrobacter as was once thought and as still frequently repeated in the literature. This was one of the main findings of Hovanec and DeLong in their work. This is also starting to be understood in the wastewater treatment plant literature, where Nitrobacter was previously thought to dominate the role but where Nitrospira is beginning to be now understood. The startup of bacterial colonies in "reactors" in the WWTP arena is the most likely area where some fresh new applied science ideas may spin off to our benefit as water hobbyists.

~~waterdrop~~
That is why I said I am still making changes to it. Bignose gave me some good articles, it is just that I have very little time to do any thing to it right now.

-FHM
 
With all the posts lately about pH crashes and low pH problems, ~~waterdrop~~ and I have written this article to help newcomers with what options may be available for them. So without further ado, here it is!




My pH Keeps Dropping, What Can I Do Now?



Tap water can vary in pH and hardness, and all tap water is not equal. Some people are blessed with tap water that is perfect for keeping fish, and some are not. In my case, my water comes out of the tap with a pH of 6.8 and a GH and KH of less than 1. This results in a wildly swinging pH, and if left uncontrolled, can be dangerous to my fish and other inhabitants. If the pH crashes (drops to 6.2 or below) the nitrifying bacteria may be shocked, temporarily stopping their processing altogether but then slowly resuming the processing at a much lower rate.

This will leave you with a buildup of ammonia and/or nitrite. As we all know, ammonia and nitrite(NO2) are toxic to fish, and this situation demands immediate attention. Raising KH (Carbonate Hardness) is a way to resist rapid changes to pH. This is referred to as "buffering" the water. The minerals that buffer (carbonate and bicarbonate ions) can be used up as the bacteria produce more nitrate(NO3) and the acid that goes with it.

Thankfully, there are a few things we can do to prevent this. Adding baking soda to the water can raise your KH and in turn increase your pH. At first glance this seems like it would be the answer, and during fishless cycling it is a good thing, but if you have fish in the tank this can be problematic. Baking soda raises the KH and pH very very fast. Too quick of a change in hardness can harm your fish, and you only want to raise their pH and hardness in small increments over the course of several days or a week depending on how much you want to change it. Baking soda also leaves Sodium in the water, which is less desirable than the Calcium left behind by crushed coral. So baking soda is our method of choice for fishless cycling, but not for fish-in situations.

Commercial products like pH up will also raise your pH, but they do nothing to buffer the water and therefore are a temporary fix. They change the pH too rapidly just like baking soda.

Crushed coral (or aragonite or crushed seashells) will do the same thing, but at a rate that is predictable and slow enough as to not hurt your fish. Crushed coral in an acidic environment will slowly dissolve and release calcium carbonate (CaCO3) into the water column buffering your water. Our method of choice with fish, crushed coral is placed in mesh bags (so it could be easily separated if you change your mind) and placed in the filter (flowing water is needed for it to dissolve significantly.) This sounds great and all, but there is one problem. Adding crushed coral will over time raise your pH, but that's not what we are aiming for. Our ultimate goal is to prevent a pH crash. If you go too long between waterchanges, you risk harming your inhabitants when you do a waterchange. There is a delicate balance between time and waterchange frequency. In my case, I can go exactly 7 days between waterchanges. Beyond 7 days, my water change might shock the fish with too much change in hardness.

To maintain this system and avoid a hardness shock to the fish you need to keep your pH close to your tap water, thus large waterchanges (50%) are in order. You will need to test frequently to find your balance. Work on getting a feel for how many days it takes to reach a 0.5 pH change. This is the balance point and indicates how long you can go between water changes.

Once you get past the serious decision of whether to alter your tap water at all, the actual use of crushed coral is not hard. Bags labeled crushed coral at your local aquarium shop are usually a mix of broken pieces of coral and shell (or aragonite) (also known as marine substrate.) Buy a mesh bag or use a thin sock foot or nylon to hold the crushed coral. Start with a small handful that’s been rinsed and place it in your filter. You can also hang it out in the filter flow in the tank but this will be significantly less effective. During filter cleans, the crushed coral needs to be cleaned of debris. The more white the crushed coral is, the better it will dissolve. This method is also all natural, and lasts for years.

So you can see, making permanent changes to solve low pH problems takes dedication and should not be attempted unless you are sure that you can change the water when it is time. If for some reason you miss a waterchange, you should perform a series of small waterchanges to get the pH and hardness back low enough. This process should take place over a few days.

In conclusion, pH, KH (as well as GH) and water changes play an important role in creating a stable fishkeeping environment. Understanding both the benefits and limitations of the use of crushed coral and baking soda is a useful skill for many aquarists.




A very special thank you to ~~waterdrop~~ who wrote this article with me! You were a huge help and this article wouldn't have been the same without you!
 
With all the posts lately about pH crashes and low pH problems, ~~waterdrop~~ and I have written this article to help newcomers with what options may be available for them. So without further ado, here it is!




My pH Keeps Dropping, What Can I Do Now?



Tap water can vary in pH and hardness, and all tap water is not equal. Some people are blessed with tap water that is perfect for keeping fish, and some are not. In my case, my water comes out of the tap with a pH of 6.8 and a GH and KH of less than 1. This results in a wildly swinging pH, and if left uncontrolled, can be dangerous to my fish and other inhabitants. If the pH crashes (drops to 6.2 or below) the nitrifying bacteria may be shocked, temporarily stopping their processing altogether but then slowly resuming the processing at a much lower rate.

This will leave you with a buildup of ammonia and/or nitrite. As we all know, ammonia and nitrite(NO2) are toxic to fish, and this situation demands immediate attention. Raising KH (Carbonate Hardness) is a way to resist rapid changes to pH. This is referred to as "buffering" the water. The minerals that buffer (carbonate and bicarbonate ions) can be used up as the bacteria produce more nitrate(NO3) and the acid that goes with it.

Thankfully, there are a few things we can do to prevent this. Adding baking soda to the water can raise your KH and in turn increase your pH. At first glance this seems like it would be the answer, and during fishless cycling it is a good thing, but if you have fish in the tank this can be problematic. Baking soda raises the KH and pH very very fast. Too quick of a change in hardness can harm your fish, and you only want to raise their pH and hardness in small increments over the course of several days or a week depending on how much you want to change it. Baking soda also leaves Sodium in the water, which is less desirable than the Calcium left behind by crushed coral. So baking soda is our method of choice for fishless cycling, but not for fish-in situations.

Commercial products like pH up will also raise your pH, but they do nothing to buffer the water and therefore are a temporary fix. They change the pH too rapidly just like baking soda.

Crushed coral (or aragonite or crushed seashells) will do the same thing, but at a rate that is predictable and slow enough as to not hurt your fish. Crushed coral in an acidic environment will slowly dissolve and release calcium carbonate (CaCO3) into the water column buffering your water. Our method of choice with fish, crushed coral is placed in mesh bags (so it could be easily separated if you change your mind) and placed in the filter (flowing water is needed for it to dissolve significantly.) This sounds great and all, but there is one problem. Adding crushed coral will over time raise your pH, but that's not what we are aiming for. Our ultimate goal is to prevent a pH crash. If you go too long between waterchanges, you risk harming your inhabitants when you do a waterchange. There is a delicate balance between time and waterchange frequency. In my case, I can go exactly 7 days between waterchanges. Beyond 7 days, my water change might shock the fish with too much change in hardness.

To maintain this system and avoid a hardness shock to the fish you need to keep your pH close to your tap water, thus large waterchanges (50%) are in order. You will need to test frequently to find your balance. Work on getting a feel for how many days it takes to reach a 0.5 pH change. This is the balance point and indicates how long you can go between water changes.

Once you get past the serious decision of whether to alter your tap water at all, the actual use of crushed coral is not hard. Bags labeled crushed coral at your local aquarium shop are usually a mix of broken pieces of coral and shell (or aragonite) (also known as marine substrate.) Buy a mesh bag or use a thin sock foot or nylon to hold the crushed coral. Start with a small handful that’s been rinsed and place it in your filter. You can also hang it out in the filter flow in the tank but this will be significantly less effective. During filter cleans, the crushed coral needs to be cleaned of debris. The more white the crushed coral is, the better it will dissolve. This method is also all natural, and lasts for years.

So you can see, making permanent changes to solve low pH problems takes dedication and should not be attempted unless you are sure that you can change the water when it is time. If for some reason you miss a waterchange, you should perform a series of small waterchanges to get the pH and hardness back low enough. This process should take place over a few days.

In conclusion, pH, KH (as well as GH) and water changes play an important role in creating a stable fishkeeping environment. Understanding both the benefits and limitations of the use of crushed coral and baking soda is a useful skill for many aquarists.




A very special thank you to ~~waterdrop~~ who wrote this article with me! You were a huge help and this article wouldn't have been the same without you!

If I use crushed coral to raise my ph how do I know how much to add and can I then use the ph up in the tap water for water changes. If not how do I raise the tap water?My water is 7.2 in a 29 gallon tank. I have a wisper filter currently with the sponge and charcoal cartridge.
 
Hi countrygirl,

Don't -ever- use those pH Up, pH Down things, you just don't want the extra chemicals they use to be in your tank.

Here in our beginner section we like to be very careful about hardness and pH advice because many newcomers come in with an exaggerated idea of the importance of fish needing to live a a given pH number. Except in extremely rare cases, that is just not true. Most tropicals, especially most of the common ones that are best for beginners, just have a need for *stability* as far as pH and mineral content go. The actual number or range doesn't matter except to the extent that we do like to be slow about acclimating them to whatever level our tank is when introducing them. By the way, the reason I keep mentioning mineral content is because that's often what is driving the values of pH that you see and mineral content is the thing that the fish are actually sensitive to, rather than pH, although its still pH that we most often use as a very rough gauge of mineral content when we haven't measured.

You've mentioned that your pH is 7.2, which is quite neutral. We'd also like to know your tap water pH as a separate measurement and whether you measured before or after adding conditioner (or you could give both.) What is going on in your tank currently (apologies for not looking up your other threads to see if you have fish or are cycling etc!)? What are you trying to accomplish?

~~waterdrop~~
 
Hi countrygirl,

Don't -ever- use those pH Up, pH Down things, you just don't want the extra chemicals they use to be in your tank.

Here in our beginner section we like to be very careful about hardness and pH advice because many newcomers come in with an exaggerated idea of the importance of fish needing to live a a given pH number. Except in extremely rare cases, that is just not true. Most tropicals, especially most of the common ones that are best for beginners, just have a need for *stability* as far as pH and mineral content go. The actual number or range doesn't matter except to the extent that we do like to be slow about acclimating them to whatever level our tank is when introducing them. By the way, the reason I keep mentioning mineral content is because that's often what is driving the values of pH that you see and mineral content is the thing that the fish are actually sensitive to, rather than pH, although its still pH that we most often use as a very rough gauge of mineral content when we haven't measured.

You've mentioned that your pH is 7.2, which is quite neutral. We'd also like to know your tap water pH as a separate measurement and whether you measured before or after adding conditioner (or you could give both.) What is going on in your tank currently (apologies for not looking up your other threads to see if you have fish or are cycling etc!)? What are you trying to accomplish?

~~waterdrop~~
 
I am on well water so haven't used conditioners for a long time.The tank has been set up for a couple of years.I added guppies and mollies a coulple weeks ago and didn't realize they required a higher ph.I want to make sure they will be ok.So far the fish look great. The problem is I also have glo lights, 2 cories,1 platy and a betta in the tank. Could move the betta if I have to.Everyone is active and seems healthy so far. I wasn't sutre how long it takes to affect them.Also my ph out of the tap is 7.2. It has always stayed stable so far.Thanks for your help
 
Well you've got a range of fish and probably a range of different preferred hardness levels. I'd probably just stay at what your source water is providing. Mollies can be a problem as they may be more prone to illness in water that is not so hard, perhaps some of the molly people will come along and help diagnose whether for your type molly there seems to be to much risk being taken.

~~waterdrop~~
 
very good read. Thanks.

How much sodium bicarbonate would i need to add to 180l to get the ph back up?
 

Most reactions

Back
Top