My First Post: Cardinals Vs. Neons

[rdd1952]

If the fish got white spot, then the cardinals had it when you bought them and that really doesn't have anything to do with the fish so much as the shop they came from. You should always quarantine new fish before adding them to your tank so you can prevent such issues.

 

[waterdrop]

Do we think ick, whitespot etc. when seen are general symptoms of any type of shock (temp, pH, NH3/NH4+, NO2, NO3) or is an experienced aquarist more suspicious of particular types of shocks for particular types of the very common fish deseases?

-waterdrop-

 

[Ian H]

I'm not sure i understand?

but ick/whitespot is actually tiny parasites on the fish. So they need to be there in the first place they can't just "appear"

 

[rabbut]

Fish get ill, when their immune system is weak. This can be caursed by shock(s) of any kind, with the exception of pH. pH should not caurse a problem, according to a scientific study one other member found at one point. However, a different pH is usualy due do a different hardness, which is more important....

The paper theorises, that the sympoms previously thought to a pH shock, were actualy hardness shock. For this reason, the water used to fill and maintain your GT tank should be tanken from the main aquarium. This ensures they undergo no shocks, that could make them suseptible to disease after being transfured.

HTH
Rabbut

 

[waterdrop]

Yes, that is what I was getting at... That is -quite- interesting to learn and file away.

Hardness shock can be important, I will now add that to my simple understanding that temperature shock is very important (that one I at least knew 30 years ago in my aquariums as a kid) and I knew ammonia was bad (but back then I had no idea what a poison it was for fish and that one could measure for it and get it down to zero) and nitrite is a poison (definately no clue about this when I was a kid, lol) and nitrates of course need to be kept down (below some ppm I have not memorized yet..) (and most of us will have to use frequent water changes to do that)

Thanks so much! Hardness shock masqueraded as pH shock, how intersting!

-waterdrop-

 

[mark.w.jones]

Heater Question: How much difference does it make if you don't have a heater yet during fishless cycling? Does warmer water help? Does it make that much difference?

Your many items have helpfully confirmed a number of my questions but I particlarly want to say that the Cycling comment is really good: I had gravel on my list as essential to get along with the filter in order to get my cycling going. Your explanation about unneeded extra initial algae is so clear that I'm convinced now to get the cycling started without the gravel and add it later per your advice. It makes sense that the sponges of the filter will be the main habitat for the bacteria and will provide enough population to process the ammonia of the initial fish. Then the bacteria population in the gravel can follow on a little later and provide processing capacity for more fish, I think.

Filter Pump Sound: Hey, I've got this idea to find a plastic bucket large enough to fit an external cannister pump into with foam around it. This would absorb sound and be a safety water catch and I'm hoping since the motors all seem to be on the top of the cannisters, it wouldn't cause them to overheat. The worst part would be sizing all this to fit in my little cabinet under the tank... we'll see, what do you think?

You must be the most polite and enthusiastic poster on here for ages. If more people followed your example rather than being really defensive they may get more of their questions answered.

Anyhow. To answer the above points. Yes you do need a raised temperature when fishless cycling in order to maximise bacterial growth. Follow the add & wait method from the link in my signature and you will have no problems at all. If you can get hold of some sponge and ceramic media from a mature filter things will move even quicker. Without the mature media you are looking at around 4 - 6 weeks to complete a fishless cycle with ammonia solution.

I think you may find that you don't need to go for all that sound proofing at all around your filter, although it will give you some leaway if things go wrong. It don't think it will make much of a difference to noise though. The two filters quoted above, eheim and tetratec from what I remember are both quiet running filters but no filter will be silent and they usually get noisier with time as impellors, pipes and media get clogged. Do a search on here for those makes and quiet running.

I think you would do better adding the gravel before beginning your fishless cycle because some bacteria will colonise it whic can only help. It is also less messy to add washed gravel first then pour water on to it.

 

[waterdrop]

Thanks jonesy,

Your tank picture is beautiful. The plants look great and the (red rasboras?) to too.

Yes, I'm now convinced that working my temp up toward 90 degrees (F) will be the right thing to do to speed up the cycling process. At least 3 members have agreed on this advice.

I remain of divided mind re whether to put the gravel in before or after. For me part of it is that I'm maxing out on how much new information I can absorb and I anticipate wanting to read more about possibly using smaller sand in addition to larger traditional gravel size. Not putting it in during cycling would buy me some more research time.

Today I hope to put together a status report over in the hardware forum of my newbie search for the right cannister filter and ask more questions.

-waterdrop-

 

[mark.w.jones]

Substrate depends upon what direction you want to go with your tank. If you want to go heavily planted and natural looking you definitely need some sort of pre fertilised substrate. Tetra Plant Complete substrate is a good example. This makes up the bottom half an inch to an inch of your substrate. You then need either a small sized gravel 1-3mm or sand as the upper layer of your substrate.

Sand looks great and bottom feeders love how soft it is for sifting through. Its easy to clean as all the crap (literally) sits on top of it. This is also a disadvantage as it can look messy very quickly.

Gravel, especially stuff which isn't that smooth, can damage the mouths and barbels of bottom feeders but it always looks very clean even when its not. Its easier to gravel vac as you just shove the nozzle deep down into it and allow the siphoning action to clear out the mess. I also personally think that black gravel particularly, looks amazing and really shows off the colours of your fish well. However, its more expensive than a natural gravel.

Coloured gravel, don't even go there, always looks horrendous.

Large sized gravel, plants roots don't hold in it well + all of the crap tends to fall through it too the bottom. This is great for people with Under Gravel Filters but virtually no-one uses them now.

 

[rdd1952]

I'm not familiar with Tetra Plant Complete but have Eco Complete in my 75 gallon. It works great but you really can't use sand over it because the sand filters down through the larger Eco Complete (or any other gravel type substrate). I started with EC on the bottom and samd over it but after less than 6 months, the sand had pretty much all disappeared from the top.

 

[fry_lover]

Cardinals based on not wanting to encounter Neon Tetra Disease, i believe its less likely with Cardinals

 

[mark.w.jones]

I'm not familiar with Tetra Plant Complete but have Eco Complete in my 75 gallon. It works great but you really can't use sand over it because the sand filters down through the larger Eco Complete (or any other gravel type substrate). I started with EC on the bottom and samd over it but after less than 6 months, the sand had pretty much all disappeared from the top.

Oh, I didn't realise that. I was planning for sand over top of mine as well. Looks like its gonna be black gravel then for me.

 

[rdd1952]

I found the Tetra substrate on line and from the looks of it, you can probably put sand over it. It looks to be a relatively fine-grained substrate as opposed to EC which is very coarse. The larger the substrate the more room for sand to filter down and into it.

 

[mark.w.jones]

Fingers crossed. Thanks for checking it out though.

 

[waterdrop]

Hi RD,Jonsey,

My tanks years ago had natural looking medium size gravel that looked a lot like jonsey's picture. All we ever did was buy plants and stick the roots in the gravel, then watch them slowly die or occasionally live. I also remember the occasional "PlantTab" dropped in (anyone remember those??)

I'm pretty intimidated by the "planted tanks" forum at TFF. It certainly makes a beginner wonder what the learning curve must be. Its a whole new world of CO2 ladders, special substrates and things I've never heard of. What do you guys think of the difficulty?

It looks extremely interesting and I want to do it but I'm hoping to avoid getting too detailed about plants initially or I will further slow down the experience for my 11-year-old! (who needs a pick up from swimming -right now!- so bye!)

~~waterdrop~~

 

[rabbut]

I have found planted tanks easy enogh to set up. If you research a good substrate now, you can get the tank set up and get fish in and worry about going full on planted later, with the relivant equipment upgrades and selecting the correct plants. You need a firm foundation of the basics before keeping a planted tank free of algae and the plants growing OK. Once basics ae grasped things are usualy relatiely easy.
The buty of this hobby is that you can choose how in-deapth you wish to take you knowlage base. If, like me, memorising latain names of plants isn't realy your thing, then you don't need to do it. Just so long as you have an idea of how things will grow when looking at them is suffice. Similar to fish realy. Once you know enough, you can pick fish that you both like and you know will mix well.

HTH
Rabbut