My First Post: Cardinals Vs. Neons

[waterdrop]

Hi Fish Forum Folks:

So I'm a middle-aged guy and my 11-year-old has a new tank. I'm having a great time reading all of your Getting Started articles, many of them are quite fascinating and I'd like to say thank-you to the admins and moderators and those of you who have put effort into these many excellent paragraphs.

So far all we have is a beautiful little tank on a nice stand with a lid and light and a nice fake Amazon sword plant expectantly sitting in dry air. My son and I are sitting on the couch looking at pictures of the Nitrogen cycle that I've printed out. This is far less interesting to him than live, swimming fish as you can imagine.

Like others who are new I'm sure to be posting questions in the coming months. I'm going to have to decide on a type and brand of filter, which will be quite important and I've also left the heater desicion unmade. I've already seen a wonderful article you have on filter media. 30 years ago or so I used to have tanks and I even did some successful breeding but there was no such thing as fishless cycling as far as I knew and certainly no access to discussion with more than a few others in the same hobby. I am currently reading all the articles on fishless cycling I can find on the web - some of the best have been at this site.

Clearly my son and I are in for some waiting time - we will need the filter decision and even finding a safe ammonia is a topic of discussion in these forums. I'm hoping to make the topic of cycling and the business of testing the water into an interesting topic for him (at least I hope there will be colored liquids involved!)

To my surprise I find that the topic of learning about the needs of some of the community fish under consideration seems to be a good first topic for me to ask about:

What are the pros and cons of Cardinal Tetras vs. Neon Tetras? I've talked to him about how nice a small school of either of these might look among the plants. I remember Neons as being more fragile than Cards but this might just have been my individual experience. It is interesting that both types seem to have stayed available in local fish stores all these years. I also remember mention of more acid water with respect to these. What's the story there?

OK, thanks in advance. I'll only get to log in every now and then but I look forward to your comments!,
waterdrop

 

[steelhealr]

Hi and .

Funny thing....neons and cardinals are found in almost EVERY lfs and packed in there by the dozens. However, they are NOT as easy to keep as it seems. These little guys are the some of the most beautiful community fish to look at but they can be pretty darn sensitive. Honestly, save them for when you have your tank established. Chances are they will disappear one by one. My recommendations are to tell your 11 year old that you can get them when the tank is a little bit older. JMO (just my opinion).

Try and start out with some hardy fish after your tank is cycled. There is a post here on fish to avoid. Eg, LFS's LOVE to sell irridescent sharks. They are small, silvery, great swimmers and very attractive to the eye. Unfortunately, they don't tell you that they can grow to over 3 feet long and as soon as they have a growth spurt, they can be difficult to give back. Welcome aboard and wow...so much fun to do this with a child.

SH
PS

So I'm a middle-aged guy

OK..so am I..and darn proud. LOL. SH

 

[charlie4486]

Hello and Welcome to TFF. As far as heaters go, i personally think that the visitherm stealth are the best heaters around. i use them in all my tanks and have never had a problem with them. I went with cardinals myself but i agree that you should wait til your tank has matured a bit. they can be quite sensitive. Good luck with your tank.

 

[waterdrop]

SH & CM,

Thanks for your replies. I will begin trying to find reading about the particularities of cards and neons and try to delay my desire to have them until the tank is well stabilized. I'm the one more interested in the tetras, my 11 year-old is much more excited about sharks, so your advice regarding the silver ones is very helpful.

Charlie, I will investigate the Visitherm. I've never heard of it. Well, I should check my notes before saying that - I wrote down the names of all the ones at the big-box store here and there were a lot, although they all looked rather cheaply built compared to what I remember in the 1960's. I used to have ones with a tough aqua-colored top and a little adjustment knob that seemed well-built.

This little tank is a 28G(106L) and my first take is that that puts it right on the dividing line between a traditional hang-on-back filter (I think I see people writing HOB in this forum?) and a cannister down on the shelf with long tubes.

Just for the heck of it let me ask this question: There's really no upper limit to how much filter one could use on a fish tank other than the practicalities of expense and size, right? I mean, theoretically, the earth provides huge habitats that are giant filters for tropical fish in their native habitats, right? Do those big public aquariums use giant filters? Sorry if that sounds silly, I just wanted to start there while beginning to think about the filter topic.

On another front, I'm making progress learning the N cycle stuff. It really helps to keep rereading it. I'm really worried about how I'm going to find a good test kit. Do you think I will find that there is a general consensus on the forum about the best test kit out there, or are there several favorites with different strengths or is it more limited by geographic availability?? I'm totally ignorant about these kits - it seems like the ideal aquarium one would have a mixing tube, a color chart and then just a good supply of the liquids to test for just ammonia, nitrites, nitrates and maybe PH, maybe hardness, but not a bunch of other things that are not so important for managing the N cycle. Am I way off base?

waterdrop

 

[SJ2K]

Hey, firstly, great to see somone starting off on the right foot, welcome

Thanks for your replies. I will begin trying to find reading about the particularities of cards and neons and try to delay my desire to have them until the tank is well stabilized. I'm the one more interested in the tetras, my 11 year-old is much more excited about sharks, so your advice regarding the silver ones is very helpful.

Just my personal preferance, im more of a Neon man i know everyone praises the extended red colouration of the cardinal but i prefer the variation brought by the neon. Your prefference at the end of the day

As far as heaters go, aslong as its a high enough wattage for your tank volume its not the end of the world theres plenty of good ones out there to pick from.

This little tank is a 28G(106L) and my first take is that that puts it right on the dividing line between a traditional hang-on-back filter (I think I see people writing HOB in this forum?) and a cannister down on the shelf with long tubes.

General concensus on here will be canister over HOB anyday, HOB's are OK for very small tanks (10g and below) but not enough for the larger volumes Try to get yourself a canister that will filter the entire tank volume (106l) 5x each hour so get one that has a flow rate of around 500/600lph Your right to an extent that there isnt really ever too much filtration, aslong as the current isnt more then the fish can handle its all good within price limits

Do you think I will find that there is a general consensus on the forum about the best test kit out there?

API Master Test Kit Easily available online and in most good fish stores.

Anything else?

 

[waterdrop]

SJ2K you just made my day!

I was shopping out near the bigbox pet store and decided I had time to run in and take some notes on which test kits they had so I'd be ready once I had advice from you guys. Well, I had been searching around this site and various other information sources and it seemed I'd ultimately want to be able to do lots of tests, probably daily or more during the cycling and that having a bottle with lots of drops to put in the little glass tubes would therefor be cheaper and less trouble than paper strips. Plus those were the types I was seeing in pictures people posted I think.

So in the store I saw right away that API was the brand that seemed to have bottles and then I realized (or imagined?) that their Stress Coat product for clearing tapwater chlorine was something I remembered from the 60's. Anyway there was the wonderful big Master Test Kit and I just went ahead and got it.

It is too great that as soon as I got home I saw your message re API MTK being a good one!

On top of that I was in the grocery store and they had a big bottle of clear ammonia for a buck and it didn't foam when I shook it. It claimed to be pure ammonia and there was no mention of scents or soaps or other bad things so I got it. Now I'll have to find what percentage or strength this will normally mean and how that will translate into drops or larger measurements.

The frustrating thing is that this went so fast that I now wish I had gravel and a filter and could get started growing my bacteria! Oh well, I guess I should be happy I made progress on a weekend that wasn't supposed to have free time. Soon I'll be grilling you guys about the subtleties of Fluvals and Renas (not to mention Hagan Aquaclears, Marineland biowheels, Tetra whispers and topfins!)

Thanks again, gotta break now and go swim my own mile in the lap pool or I won't feel good today,
-- waterdrop --

 

[Luketendo]

Well done getting the API test kit, I was lucky enough for my dad to have randomly picked it and it is very good, over 2 years on I still have lots of tests left, but I think the nitrate tests are getting low since they are 10 drops rather than 8, 5 or 3. I suppose you already have a dechlorinator since you mentioned stress coat, if not, that is probably the most important product you need, even more so than the test kit (even though both are vital.)

The general rule for gauging how much ammonia you need to add is by getting a set amount of water (I choose 10L.) Add some drops and then stir and test for ammonia, you want to have about 5ppm of ammonia. If there's too much, tip the water and start over with less drops, if there's not enough, add more drops until you get 5ppm. Make sure you count how many drops you've added, because when you're done you need to work out how many buckets of water you'd need to fill your tank. In your case, using a 10L bucket, times the number of drops by about 11 and then add that amount of drops to your full tank.

Ok, now for the filters. Here in the UK, HOBs are scarce. I use a fluval external on my 60L tank and I would recommend it to anyone. HOBs may be a viable option, but since I know nothing about them, external filters may be the best option for their sheer media capacity and useful flow rates. I suggest, if you want an external, you buy a fluval 105. But if you want to heavily stock your tank, a fluval 205 would be better since it has better flow rates and media capacity. I suggest as a beginner you stick to low-normal stocking so you'd only need a Fluval 105.

Apparently, Visitherm are the best heaters, but since my hagen heaters have been so reliable, I can't comment on that since I have never had to replace a heater.

Good Luck.
(This is just the start .)

 

[waterdrop]

Luketendo,

Thanks so much for your response and answers! I'm not used to a forum that's as international as this, so it is fun hearing from someone in the UK. My son and I passed through England to do some singing in a number of the beautiful cathedrals there a couple of years ago. We had a great time.

Yes, I did get a bottle of Stress Coat, knowing I might want to speed up the dechlorination at some stage. Our local tap water authority has a new policy of periodically switching water-cleaning techniques from chlorination to chloramination, so I'm glad the new conditioners like stress coat can handle both types of treated tap water. It is a little weird that the bottle says stuff about aloe vera and replacing slime coat but I assume the product is still an ok choice for dechlorinating water for a tank setup, right?

Heaters: OK, so you are the 2nd guy to say something positive about the visitherm heaters. Are you just noting that Charlie M, above in the thread, had mentioned they are good or are you saying you've seen other positive posts about visitherm on the forum? I found that this brand is definately available near me, in 50,100,200,250 watt versions. I think the 100 was supposed to be just enough for a 28G/106L according to the packaging. Am I remembering correctly that buying too big a wattage is a little dangerous in case it goes haywire? Like maybe it would cook the fish faster in that rare circumstance?

Filters: OK, so it is continuing to sound from you guys like the cannister models are almost always a superior choice if I can stand the higher price...
1) Quietness: This will be in my son's bedroom so there will be a real premium on quietness. It would be so great to hear from anyone out there who has chanced to have used more than one model and could pass some judgement on this!! I don't mean to step on the toes of any given manufacturer as I am sure they all have their strengths and weaknesses! Also, tell me if I should stick this question over in a different forum than the beginner one in order to catch attention from others, if so , which one?
2) Flow Rate: So SJ2K gave me some very specific advice to try 500-600 Liters per hour for my 28G/106L in order to do about 5 full exchanges in an hour. This is probably quite a bit higher than a HOB would do I guess, anybody want to venture a guess? And so I guess (remember, I'm pretty much a rank beginner here so feel free to correct my inaccurate guesses!!) that high flow rates are good up until they start disturbing the fish with too much current. I have no idea what devices are used on the actual aquarium where the cannister hoses go to and come from (I'm guessing just stiff clear plastic hanging tubes with perforations of some sort.)
3) O2: This feels really stupid, like something I should remember from my aquariums years ago but is the water movement through the filter system adding oxygen a lot? I mean I can see that water movement itself would expose new water to the tank surface, that's one thing. But the cannister system seems pretty closed otherwise. Is a filter system a main O2 contributor or is it not and separate pumps with airstones more important for that?
4) Sponges: I was looking at the sponge inserts that could be bought for the Fluvals and the Renas and it only looked like the rougher grade was available, the stage that would stop the larger particle sizes. One of the filter media articles said it would be good to have a finer grade for the bacteria to settle in. I haven't checked their web sites yet but do these makers sell different grades of sponges or do you experts go and cultivate your own sponge sources?

OK, I quit. If anybody is still reading at this point, my sincere thanks - always exciting for a newbie to get answers!!
--waterdrop--

 

[rdd1952]

Hi waterdrop and welcome to the forum. It's always good to see a fellow Carolinian although you being from Chapel Hill could be an issue (Duke fan here).

I don't know about your area but around Charlotte, cardinals are almost impossible to find. Several months ago, I was considering adding either cardinals or neons and couldn't find cardinals anywhere. I talked to a couple shop owners in the area and what I was told is that the cardinals from the distributors they got their fish from (most likely the same ones the shops near you get theirs from too) were extremely hard to keep and that they experienced too much loss even before they could sell them. They said that, on the other hand, the neons they got were extremely hardy and they rarely had any problems with them. That is pretty much the opposite of what we have all been told and learned.

I would suggest you also talk to the shops in your area. Try to find the true fish stores and get their opinion. Having said that, be careful how much faith you put in their advice until you know them better. Unfortunately, even some true fish stores give out bad advice about compatibility and other things and are just out toake a buck. You will eventually learn who you can trust. You are on the right track with all the research you have been doing. You probably already know more that a lot ofthe employees at the chain stores.

In respect to your other questions, I agree that canisters are better if the cost isn't an issue. I have them on my 75 gallon and will change my 29 gallon to on (from an HOB) when it has to be replaced. They aer quieter, require less maintanence and provife more room for media that most HOBs. Flow rate shoudl be at least 5x the tank size (more is always better as long as water flow and current aren't a factor for your fish) so for yours you would need at least 150 gph.

For heaters, you need at least 3 and preferable 5 watts per gallon so 100 watts would work for you while 150 would probably be better. It also depends on the normal ambient temperature in the room where you have the tank. If it is normally in the mid 70s, you probably don't need much help with a heater and 100w ould be fine. If you keep the room cooler, you probably need the 150.

And last but not least, oxygen exchange occurs at the surface so any surface disturbance adds O2 to the water. The bubble created by air stones realy add only a minute amount of O2 to the water as they travel to the surface. When they burst at the surfae is when the oxygenation occurs. So in that sense, a HOB is better than a canister since the HOB generally will create more surface disturbance than a canister.

 

[Luketendo]

Ok, I'll start with the filter.

If you want a 5x flow rate a fluval 205 would be better than a 105. I have a fluval 104 in my bedroom and it is pretty much silent, the only thing I notice at night is my gerbils. Providing Oxygen to the tank is easy. All you need is good water movement, believe it or not airstones aren't very good at this and are primarily for display. Your filter will do this job providing the outlet ripples the surface.

Fluval filters (in this country) come with all the sponges and filter media you need, so you don't need to replace anything unless you use things like carbon or wool.

Also a 100 watt filter should be ok for your tank.

 

[xxBarneyxx]

Welcome to the forums!

I think most of the questions have been pretty well covered so will just add my 2 cents here and there

With regards to heaters in my own experience I have found that most people dont pay that much attention to them and as long as you dont get one of the really cheap ones you should be fine. I have some Rena ones that I have been using for years and they are still doing great if that helps. 100w will most likely do fine unless you have a very cold house (in which case go for a 150w).

If you have the money you can get canister filters with a heater built in or get an in-line heater that goes inline with the piping on the canister filter. Both options are more expensive (the first more than the second) but it does mean that it is one less bit of equipment in the tank (I personally like to have as much equipment as possible not visable in the tank but its personal preference).

With regards to external filters. I would recommend an external over any other type of filter. In regards to brands I would recommend ehiem (based on personal experience) or tetratec (based on many good things I have read/heard about them) over any other brand. I have used Fluval filters (both internal and external ones) for years and never had an issue with them but many people have had problems with them leaking and I would have to say that every one of mine has been quite loud. The other problem with the fluvals is thay use rigid, grey, corrigated tubing with looks horrid and also makes it a PITA to attach different head on or put inline heaters in.

I'm using an ehiem at the moment and it is very quite and has a great build quality. The only thing I dont like about the ehiems is that they dont have a self primer. On the fluvals you have a little "hand pump" that you use to get the syphon going. On the Ehiems you have to suck on the tube to get it going. Fine when you first set up but not so pleasent when your tank has been running awhile... I would recommend buying either the hand pump or primer kit for it.

With most canister filters you get most of the media you need with it. These mainly being:
Course sponge/foam pads - These never need to be changed. The regularly (once a month) rinsed out in a bucket of tap water.

Pre-filter rings - These are smooth ceramic rings that are supposed to removed large bits from the water. They arent neccersary imo as they come in after the foam pads so wont have to remove any large particals from the water.

Bio media - These are normally either "bio-balls" (plastic balls with lots of "fins") or "bio-rings" (Ceramic rings with lots of "pits" in to increase the surface area to grow lots of bacteria). I would go with the bio-rings (I think fluval brand them as Bio-Max). These never need to be replaced and again just a good rinse with tank water in a bucket every month is fine.

Filter wool - These is like cotton wool and is normall put either as the last stage of filtration (to give the water a final polish) or as the first stage of filtration after the foam pads. I would put it just after the foam pads as this gives the bio media nice clean water and stop it from getting clogged up. The filter wool can be replaced on a monthy basis.

Active Carbon - A lot of filters come with active carbon. It is good at removing impurties from the water but really isn't needed. It also has to be replaced regularly as it can start to leech stuff back into the water. I keep some on hand but only use it if I need to remove medication from the tank.

Other stuff - There are loads and loads of different types of filter media you can get but most of them aren't needed. Purigreen (think thats what its called) is apprently very good and keep the water crystal clear and although it loses effectivness over time (like carbon) it can be recharged. I keep meaning to give it a try but just never get around to buy some

O2: As mentioned this is done just with good surface movement. Just put the return head from the filter close to the water surface and you will be fine.

Stress Coat: The aloa vera is fine. I have used Stress Coat for years as my water conditioner and it does a good job.

Cycling the tank: One thing that isnt mentioned much in the tank cycling articles that you might want toi consider. When you set the tank up to cycle do not add any of the substrate or decorations. During the cycling period you will most likely get a fair amount of algae due to the high levels of ammonia and nitrite. If you leave the tank bare while it is cycling then it makes it very easy to clean the glass off once it is cycled, do a large water change and then add the substrate (make sure its well rinsed), etc. Otherwise you might end up with your substrate and decoration covered in algae (you will get algae no matter what but the thread/brown algae during the cycling stage is ugly and tends to cover everything).

Cardinals Vs Neon's: Cardinal Tetras really are one of my favorite fish. Neither speices is particularly hardy though so as mentioned I would tend to add these only after the tank has been running for a couple of months (after cycling with no problems).

API test kits: Yep these are great

Sound from the filter: Even the best filters are going to be slightly noisey. If you have a tank stand with a cabinet I would get some 5-10mm foam ceiling tiles. Put one on the bottom for the canister to stand on (stops some of the vibration) and if you really want it quiet, line the insides of the cupboard with it as well. It does a good job of deadening a lot of the sound, cork is better if you can get it. Also try to make sure that the lid on the tank fits firmly and that no pipe is left danglying against the glass as these tend to be the biggest sources of noise.

Other things you might need to get:
Fish food: I would recommend picking up a few packets of frozen blood worm. This is a great food for (almost) every fish and makes a good change from flake food. You dont have to feed this every day but once a week helps to vary the fish diet and in my opinion is much better for the fish. Theres lots of other frozen and dried foods which are also very good to feed occasionally as well.

A net: Probably will not be used but good to have to hand.

Python water change system (or DIY version) - Makes water changes a LOT easier. Have a look in the hardware section of this forum for info on how to put one together.

 

[waterdrop]

Goooood morning advisors! You guys are awesome(!)(as in my teenagers lingo) I have just read all your posts and plan to digest them by rereading them today... meanwhile I have to get the young tank owner off to school for the first time since the holiday.. so more later. I just wanted to say -thank-you- right away ........waterdrop.....

 

[waterdrop]

OK, I still haven't processed and consolidated all your info into my research but I'm going to jump in here, say hi and write a few things:

To rdd1952: Hey! My wife grew up in Mt. Holly and we still drive by sometimes to look at the old house. It is great news to hear from someone so near by. I often get down to Charlotte to see my father-in-law and I would be very interested to hear your comments on fish stores in Charlotte. You're right that I'm a Carolina fan... still shaking a little from nearly getting beat by Clemson last night. I have lots of Dukie neighbors and good friends though and we're almost always fine as long as we don't watch a duke-unc game together!

Interesting about the Cardinal tetras - In contrast I remember a period of years when it seemed like Cardinals were very hardy and neons were seemingly much more fragile. But times can change and I did notice in my reading in one book that Cardinals, the author felt, needed a more precise environment than neons. I have seen both in recent fish store looks but the latest look turned up lots of neons. I will continue to read up and will not plan any of these for the earlier inhabitants.

To both rdd1952 and Luketendo: really appreciate the continued comments - I'm leaning now toward a 150 watt heater for the 28G/106L because my house is old and cold and the tank location will be subject to both an indirect forced-air heater vent and to cold windows, although I'm not placing it in front of the windows thank heaven. It won't be ideal but I've got no choice. My closest source didn't have a 150w so I may have to look farther out there.

Heater Question: How much difference does it make if you don't have a heater yet during fishless cycling? Does warmer water help? Does it make that much difference?

To xxBarneyxx: Wow, your version of 2 cents adds up to quite a bit of cash: Thanks much for the extensive detailed comments...

re Ehiem brand - I don't know this and now will investigate... re in-line heating along the tubes, this sounds really interesting, something I had wondered about years ago but very interesting that it now exists.

Your many items have helpfully confirmed a number of my questions but I particlarly want to say that the Cycling comment is really good: I had gravel on my list as essential to get along with the filter in order to get my cycling going. Your explanation about unneeded extra initial algae is so clear that I'm convinced now to get the cycling started without the gravel and add it later per your advice. It makes sense that the sponges of the filter will be the main habitat for the bacteria and will provide enough population to process the ammonia of the initial fish. Then the bacteria population in the gravel can follow on a little later and provide processing capacity for more fish, I think.

Filter Pump Sound: Hey, I've got this idea to find a plastic bucket large enough to fit an external cannister pump into with foam around it. This would absorb sound and be a safety water catch and I'm hoping since the motors all seem to be on the top of the cannisters, it wouldn't cause them to overheat. The worst part would be sizing all this to fit in my little cabinet under the tank... we'll see, what do you think?

OK, gotta go guys but I'm sure to have more questions --waterdrop--

 

[pirate monkey]

Hi waterdrop

I got cardinals as some of the first fish in my tank. It was cycled and some silvertip tetras had been introduced and doing fine but when I put the cardinals in it was another story. Mine got ick (white spot) after 2 days and then died after treatment - I had done a large water change after medicating but the temp difference was probably enough of a shock to finish them off!

A shame cos they looked lovely swimming around. They may just have been from an unhealthy stock. I now have some neon tetras in quarantine and will see how these go, my tank is a lot more mature now, but I still think I'll leave the cardinals a while longer. I prefer cardinals to look at!

Good luck!

pirate monkey

 

[phil2m]

I have a lfs that sells 'diamond neon tetras' they're similar to standard ones but have a more silver appearance. Another fish you could consider!