My Doomed Tetra Tank...

[OldMan47]

You are doing just fine. Your nitrates will never have a chance to build up if you are controlling both ammonia and nitrites with water changes. Tap water levels of nitrate in the tank are to be expected for a fish-in cycle. If your fish are gulping air with their food, simply feed by submerging your finger tips before releasing the flakes. That way the food will not be resting on the surface where fish can take in air with the food.

 

[tanksalot]

When you feed flake food are you just dropping it on the surface?

Ummm...yes! At least, I was because I knew no better For the past couple of days I've been scooping up some tank water in a spoon and waterlogging the flakes in that before dumping the whole lot back in the tank - I don't like messy fingers At the moment I have only one kind of fish - the neons - but when I move up to my next tank (inevitable, I think!) I'll remember the tip about submerging the food so that the surface-attackers don't get the lot

Thanks to you both - these little hints and tips are absolutely invaluable to the beginner fishkeeper, not to mention the reassurance!

 

[waterdrop]

What I described is something I in fact do to a great deal for my neons and feel they are perhaps the prime beneficiaries. The spoon is just extra bother, you could probably get yourself used to letting the tank water rinse your fingers and using the tank towel. The food is quite harmless. WD

 

[tanksalot]

That's now 2 weeks of solid 0 readings for ammonia and nitrite, so my water changing regime seems to be doing the trick. I'm down to changing 1.5 litres of water per day (about 5%) so I'm thinking it'll be time to skip a day before too long. Yikes. I shall probably be hard-pressed not to test the water every hour or so when that happens

I've decided to be optimistic about this and order a bigger tank (64 litres - that's my space limit, unfortunately!) with a view to transferring the tetra at some point, and using the 27 litre for a single betta. I was skeptical about the neons needing a bigger tank when I first bought them because they seemed so tiny, but then I didn't realise that they were juveniles. Having seen some full-grown ones now, I can tell that such lively little fish would not be happy long term in a 12" cube. I really wonder at fish shops selling them to people with tiny tanks like mine when they must know they're not suitable

 

[waterdrop]

It looks like the fish must have gone in about August 4th or so and that you are at perhaps 2.5 weeks since they went in. Even though you are getting double-zero readings I feel this is too short a time to trust that large enough size colonies of the two beneficial bacteria have established in robust way. We are suspicious of cycles that are under a month. But you are using API kits and your water changes are giving you double-zeros, so we must suspect that its primarily the water changes that are doing this (fish-in cycles are much harder for getting a "progress" feel, compared to fishless cycles.)

I would suggest that you continue to test at least twice a day (but twice a day should be fine) and that yes, you need not automatically change water on a day when its still double-zero. So, for example, if you get a double-zero reading during an evening test then let it go until the next morning but be sure to test then and if its looking halfway to 0.25ppm then consider changing water that morning. If its a bare trace then let it go. You have a complicating factor by having relatively many plants in the tank. One of the things that can happen (we hope it won't to you) is that you can think the tank is cycled but then if the plants die you find out they had been clearing the ammonia and nitrate and that there aren't enough bacteria to handle it without them. As we get past a month, the chances of that get less and less.

~~waterdrop~~

 

[OldMan47]

My own guess is that your cabomba is taking care of most of the ammonia that a few tiny neons can produce. That would means that you could actually try just sampling the water daily and go to a routine weekly 30% change. If no ammonia and no nitrites show up, you are in a "silent cycle" the way plant people will often advocate trying. It is a bit chancy to try to do a silent cycle on purpose but if that is what shows up in your tank you need to accept it.

 

[tanksalot]

That's an interesting thought, OM47. I have to admit I've been toying with it myself, especially as I've been decreasing the volume of water changed fairly sharply over the past week with absolutely no detectable ammonia or nitrite showing up. But as I have been changing at least some water every day, I haven't wanted to make any assumptions.

Still, I've been seriously impressed with the growth rate of the Cabomba. It practically doubled in size in a week and a half and that's without any fertilisers/fertilising substrate or C02 - goodness only knows what it would do if I gave it those! It must have found the nutrients to do that from somewhere. There is also a big Cryptocoryne which is looking very healthy and leafy, but I read that they are slow growing so I don't suppose that would be much help to a silent cycle? There is definitely a considerable amount of plant matter in the tank but I'm way too inexperienced to know if it's enough to influence matters to any great extent.

I'm interested to know, though, so I haven't changed any water today and have returned double 0's both morning and evening. We'll see what happens tomorrow...

 

[OldMan47]

Ammonia is fertilizer so you cannot assume the cabomba is growing that fast with no fertilizer. In a "natural planted tank" the fish waste is used as the main fertilizer for the plants. It can end up looking like this tank that I maintain.

 

[tanksalot]

Now that's a lot of plants! Bet the fish love having so much cover to hide in.

I actually meant that I don't add any chemical plant fertilisers myself, so my plants are indeed making do with whatever my fish provide.

I was holding my breath when I tested this morning (it's been 48 hours since last water change), but still double 0's, and very definitely so - no trace of green in the ammonia and no hint of mauve in the nitrite. I'll hold off changing any water and see how things are by this evening. I know I'll need to keep an eagle eye on it at this stage because I'm aware that things can change very quickly in such a small tank, and I don't want to stress my fish any more than necessary.

Oh, I tested nitrate because I haven't for a while, and it was 5ppm, so no change there.

ETA: Forgot that today is gravel vacuuming day, so I removed about a quarter of the water in the process of doing that. Oh well. Experiment starts again tomorrow...

 

[OldMan47]

You are doing fine Tanksalot. As long as you keep a close eye on things the chemical tests will let you know how you are doing. If you determine that you are experiencing a silent cycle, don't add any more fish for about a month and things should work out fine.

 

[waterdrop]

Agree, looks good to me too. WD

 

[Dave Spencer]

There is definitely a considerable amount of plant matter in the tank but I'm way too inexperienced to know if it's enough to influence matters to any great extent.

At last…an interesting cycling thread.

You have seen healthy plant growth and zero ammonia from practically day one, so the influence your plants are having should be obvious by now.

Plants` first choice for nitrogen is via NH3/4, so the result of the relatively fast growth of your plants is that the NH3/4 is rapidly being removed from the water column.

Secondly, few people realise that a strong nitrifying bacteria colony can instantly be introduced in to the tank just by adding plants. The root system alone provides a richly oxygenated environment for the colony, and plants also export carbohydrates etc. which are very beneficial to the colony.

My guess would be that you are well ahead of the cycling game, and have provided an excellent example of how a beginner can avoid cycling a tank, by using plants. Even when introducing fish that many would have you waiting months, before their introduction. I did it as a novice, so have you, and so can anyone.

Dave.

 

[tanksalot]

Hi Dave,

Good to know my thread isn't a cure for insomnia

I suppose as a first-time fishkeeper I have no idea what "normal" is for a tank in the cycling process, so I didn't want to make any assumptions. Sure, I could see the Cabomba growing like mad, but I wouldn't know whether that growth rate was sufficient to be clearing the water of ammonia to a safe level. I'm coming round to thinking it might well be. Nice!

Secondly, few people realise that a strong nitrifying bacteria colony can instantly be introduced in to the tank just by adding plants. The root system alone provides a richly oxygenated environment for the colony, and plants also export carbohydrates etc. which are very beneficial to the colony.

I definitely didn't know that...very interesting.

I read your article in the planted tank forum about silent cycling and I have to say that that way of doing things appeals to me a lot (minus the CO2...I have no budget for that). I've been a keen gardener for over 20 years so the plants side of things fascinates me - though I can't necessarily recognise a non-aquatic plant when I see one, apparently . Provided that nothing untoward has happened to my current tank, when I set up my new 64 litre Interpet FishPod - soon, hopefully! - I will give it some serious consideration...

 

[waterdrop]

There is definitely a considerable amount of plant matter in the tank but I'm way too inexperienced to know if it's enough to influence matters to any great extent.

At last…an interesting cycling thread.

You have seen healthy plant growth and zero ammonia from practically day one, so the influence your plants are having should be obvious by now.

Plants` first choice for nitrogen is via NH3/4, so the result of the relatively fast growth of your plants is that the NH3/4 is rapidly being removed from the water column.

Secondly, few people realise that a strong nitrifying bacteria colony can instantly be introduced in to the tank just by adding plants. The root system alone provides a richly oxygenated environment for the colony, and plants also export carbohydrates etc. which are very beneficial to the colony.

My guess would be that you are well ahead of the cycling game, and have provided an excellent example of how a beginner can avoid cycling a tank, by using plants. Even when introducing fish that many would have you waiting months, before their introduction. I did it as a novice, so have you, and so can anyone.

Dave.

OMG! He's clicked over here from the ukaps to check in on us! Hi Dave! Have to admit that as my fledgling low-light experiences keep racking up some time and some small changes on my part, the confidence does continue to grow that a significant number of beginners could make this work. Do you have any numerical feel for cases of beginners trying it over in the planted section and having it go ok for them? Hey, are you going to get george farmer and fly over to visit llj (isn't that the florida lady?) and claim the beer I'll try to save you under the table at the banquet in Ft. Laud.? (members pretend you didn't read that )

Yes this one looks like significant silent cycling was in action --WD

 

[tanksalot]

Still chugging along here.

No water change since Sunday afternoon and double 0's at every test. Only problem I have is that now I'm not changing any water I can see that my bogwood is leaching tannins like mad - my little neons are gonna need foglights to see their way round the tank soon

So, as I understand it, if things continue to be stable, what I have is a sort of dual biological filtration system comprising of plants and bacteria, where the plants have been doing the heavy lifting and the bacteria have been growing up on their leftovers, so to speak? (just trying to get my head around this) That relies pretty heavily on the plants remaining healthy to maintain the balance, I assume? Just as well I've been using the prunings from the Cabomba to make a new plant in a container on my kitchen windowsill - I'm a gardener: we're completely incapable of binning healthy plant material ). I have a goodly bunch of Elodea densa in there as well, so I should be covered for an emergency...