More Problems

[AMS]

What type of water test kit are you using, fresh or salt water? At 1.016 you should be using a saltwater test kit, a freshwater test kit will provide very inaccurate reading at a SG this high. If you cant purchase one right now I suggest going to a LFS and have them test it.

Can you describe this "shimmying"?

What equipment is making surface agitation? (IE filters, powerheads)

What and how often are you feeding them?

Any other symptoms?

You may want to post this in the emergencies section if their condition weakens.

 

[nmonks]

In my experience monos are extremely sensitive to "psychological" stress despite being very resistant to physiological stresses. Salinity, pH, and hardness are all largely irrelevant over the short term, and people have kept -- and spawned -- these fish despite keeping them for years at a time in freshwater conditions!

On the other hand, I have seen monos turn black and gasp because of being confined in buckets or upon the introduction of some particularly belligerent tankmate. They don't like changes. If this were me, I'd keep an eye on the water quality (nitrite/ammonium) but otherwise sit back and wait. If the tank is cycling, it isn't going to kill the monos, and while they may get a bit of fin rot, that's easily fixed. (I assume these are young monos in a big tank, right?) But otherwise, don't fuss around the tank, don't do massive water changes, don't switch the lights on and off repeatedly... basically, leave the fish alone. With stressed monos, there's a lot to be said for leaving the tank lights off but the curtains open (or room light on) -- the half-shade helps them calm down.

As AMS pointed out, you must have marine-grade nitrite and ammonium kits. Salt water changes the chemistry of these toxins, and so a test kit that works in freshwater might not respond properly, if at all, in a marine tank.

Cheers,

Neale

 

[justinp]

In my experience monos are extremely sensitive to "psychological" stress despite being very resistant to physiological stresses. Salinity, pH, and hardness are all largely irrelevant over the short term, and people have kept -- and spawned -- these fish despite keeping them for years at a time in freshwater conditions!

On the other hand, I have seen monos turn black and gasp because of being confined in buckets or upon the introduction of some particularly belligerent tankmate. They don't like changes. If this were me, I'd keep an eye on the water quality (nitrite/ammonium) but otherwise sit back and wait. If the tank is cycling, it isn't going to kill the monos, and while they may get a bit of fin rot, that's easily fixed. (I assume these are young monos in a big tank, right?) But otherwise, don't fuss around the tank, don't do massive water changes, don't switch the lights on and off repeatedly... basically, leave the fish alone. With stressed monos, there's a lot to be said for leaving the tank lights off but the curtains open (or room light on) -- the half-shade helps them calm down.

As AMS pointed out, you must have marine-grade nitrite and ammonium kits. Salt water changes the chemistry of these toxins, and so a test kit that works in freshwater might not respond properly, if at all, in a marine tank.

Cheers,

Neale

Thanks for the response...
They are young Monos (3) in a hospital tank (only 20 gallons) as their main tank (100 gallons) is cycling. The main tank was cycled but there were problems when we moved. I moved them into this smaller tank temporarily because they looked to be in really bad shape. They had been fine for a week or so until I medicated the tank for their fin rot. Now the meds are finished and they are very stressed. They have only had room and window light in this tank and are eating minimaly. I think they may be stressed due to the size of the tank and the medication...I will take your advice and continue to just watch and monitior their water, which is fine right now. I have seen them get stressed like this before (when we moved) but it wasnt for nearly as long...Only one of them has actually turned black during this, although he becomes very silver again when he eats. Anyways thanks for the advice and if you do think of anything else please let me know.

Justin

AMS

The "shimmying" is just in the corners of the tanks and they sort of look like they are swimming really fast but only in one place. Almost like they think they are trying to shake something off of their body...I have not found anything on them though. They also have been getting very aggressive towards each other. Two now have clamped fins and are near the bottom until the others chase them. The tank has a canister filter agitating the surface as well as a powerhead. The oxygen should be fine. They were feeding once a day but now once every two, right now they have been eating, bloodworms, earthworms, prawns, crickets and even some flake food. There are no other symptoms that I can see besides their lack of energy.

Thanks Again

 

[nmonks]

It sounds to me like they're stressed by being moved and being in confined quarters. Though said to be schooling fish (and they are in the wild) in captivity this seems not to always be the case, and these fish are very territorial. I have kept three specimens through to maturity, but others have failed, and ended up with only one or two specimens. Mixing with scats seems to help -- the two species work well against each other.

If it were me, I'd move the monos back to the cycling tank. Assuming you have specimens an inch or two long, in a 100 gallon tank, you should be safe. Monos have been used to mature marine aquaria decades ago, before people had access to large amounts of living rock. While not quite as indestructible as black mollies, they're close. As I say, they're more likely to die from stress than from ammonium poisoning. Twenty gallons is just too small for these open water fish.

If at all possible, try and get some marine filter medium from another aquarist. At 1.016, the bacteria should be the same, and you can speed up maturation enormously.

Cheers,

Neale

 

[justinp]

Thanks for all your help!

They are back in the cycling tank and things seem to be getting better. Two of them seem quite happy again and the other will not come out of hiding but I think hes going to be ok. I do have just a few more questions though...Right now the PH is low, around 7. For whatever reason (maybe the water in my area is quite acidic, I have tested it and get something around 6 or even lower) it will not seem to stay up around 8. I have used a marine buffer which raises it for a day or so but then it drops quickly. Any thoughts? I know the Monos are ok in the short term but I need to figure this out. I also wonder if this is why they are doing ok during the cycle. I guess I will go back to using crushed coral but Id rather not...Any ideas would be great.

I have never done many water changes during cycles until the end of the cycle (for nitrate) but also never cycled with anything other than black mollies. In this case with Monos in the tank should I be doing my weekly water changes?

And lastly, I have found that one of the monos has a growth just above his mouth. I had though that it was "cotton mouth" but it looks more like a "hard" white bump, and yesterday I noticed that it was pink in the middle. I cant figure out what this is. He seems normal otherwise.

Thanks once more,

You guys have been great...

 

[nmonks]

Glad you moved the monos back. I think they'll be fine.

Alkaline buffers get "used up" if the water is very acidic. A buffer is a compound that tops up the alkalinity at a rate proportional to the deviation in alkalinity from whatever the optimal is. So if the buffer is "set" for pH 7.5, and the water is naturally pH 7.4, only a little buffer will be used up. If the water drops to pH 6.5, then much more gets used up.

Now, under most circumstances the seawater has enough buffering capacity for additional buffering agents to be relatively unimportant. Putting coral sand or crushed coral in the substrate is one method, but bear in mind that this technique works best with undergravel filters. It is the flow of water through the coral substrate that buffers the water. If the coral sand is simply a static substrate, then hardly any water is moving through it, and its buffering capacity is much less.

If you have very soft and acidic water, it's likely that the marine buffer potion isn't adequate to the task in hand. I'd certainly consider adding crushed coral to one "segment" of the filter. It will work as a passably useful pre-filter, and provided you clean in under hot water every couple of weeks, it should help buffer the water that passes through the filter. Then add some coral sand to the subtrate. While neither of these would be adequate on their own, together they should be enough.

Having said all this, I wouldn't worry too much. While marines certainly need a high pH, and brackish prefer something like 7.5 to 8, brackish fish are relatively tolerant, and will adapt to whatever is available (within reason). So long as the pH doesn't go below 7.5, I wouldn't panic just yet. While the marine buffer might be worth sticking with, I wouldn't bother, and I'd look for a less expensive method like the coral sand/crushed coral combo mentioned above.

I'd be doing 10-20% water changes per week at this stage. There's more than enough ammonium/nitrite in the system with these high-metabolism fish. No need to worry about the bacteria starving!

I have no idea what the growth is on your mono. Need a picture if possible. It may well be a bump or bruise, in which case it will clear up by itself. But it might be something more serious. Keep an eye on it, and look to see if it is growing, or bleeding, or if there are signs of dead tissue. Monos are essentially very hardy, so I wouldn't be too alarmed at this stage.

Cheers,

Neale

 

[justinp]

Glad you moved the monos back. I think they'll be fine.

Alkaline buffers get "used up" if the water is very acidic. A buffer is a compound that tops up the alkalinity at a rate proportional to the deviation in alkalinity from whatever the optimal is. So if the buffer is "set" for pH 7.5, and the water is naturally pH 7.4, only a little buffer will be used up. If the water drops to pH 6.5, then much more gets used up.

Now, under most circumstances the seawater has enough buffering capacity for additional buffering agents to be relatively unimportant. Putting coral sand or crushed coral in the substrate is one method, but bear in mind that this technique works best with undergravel filters. It is the flow of water through the coral substrate that buffers the water. If the coral sand is simply a static substrate, then hardly any water is moving through it, and its buffering capacity is much less.

If you have very soft and acidic water, it's likely that the marine buffer potion isn't adequate to the task in hand. I'd certainly consider adding crushed coral to one "segment" of the filter. It will work as a passably useful pre-filter, and provided you clean in under hot water every couple of weeks, it should help buffer the water that passes through the filter. Then add some coral sand to the subtrate. While neither of these would be adequate on their own, together they should be enough.

Having said all this, I wouldn't worry too much. While marines certainly need a high pH, and brackish prefer something like 7.5 to 8, brackish fish are relatively tolerant, and will adapt to whatever is available (within reason). So long as the pH doesn't go below 7.5, I wouldn't panic just yet. While the marine buffer might be worth sticking with, I wouldn't bother, and I'd look for a less expensive method like the coral sand/crushed coral combo mentioned above.

I'd be doing 10-20% water changes per week at this stage. There's more than enough ammonium/nitrite in the system with these high-metabolism fish. No need to worry about the bacteria starving!

I have no idea what the growth is on your mono. Need a picture if possible. It may well be a bump or bruise, in which case it will clear up by itself. But it might be something more serious. Keep an eye on it, and look to see if it is growing, or bleeding, or if there are signs of dead tissue. Monos are essentially very hardy, so I wouldn't be too alarmed at this stage.

Cheers,

Neale

Thank you so much Neale

Your advice and comments have been invaluable as I do not really have anyone at my local shops who I feel know enough about Brackish Fish Care, even though they sell them. So thank you again! I am going to try the crushed coral and substrate and hope the ph stays up...

Justin

 

[nmonks]

Happy to help.

Have faith in your fish. The nice thing with brackish water fish is they've evolved to be as close to indestructible as nature can allow. Provided your fish are behaving normally and eating, don't worry too much about test kit results and what the books say you should be doing. Brackish water fish usually put up with things that would floor more sensitive species. Your monos are probably more stressed by all the water changes and tank changes than the actual water quality or chemistry.

Sit back, let the tank settle down. There are fishes that need tender, loving care, but monos aren't among them. Nor, really, are archers. These are the fish equivalents of spider plants rather than orchids. Assuming the tank is basically managed properly, and the filter eventually settles down, they will provide you with much pleasure for many years.

Until an aquarist has seen archers spitting in their own aquarium -- they don't deserve the title "aquarist"!

Cheers,

Neale

 

[justinp]

Happy to help.

Have faith in your fish. The nice thing with brackish water fish is they've evolved to be as close to indestructible as nature can allow. Provided your fish are behaving normally and eating, don't worry too much about test kit results and what the books say you should be doing. Brackish water fish usually put up with things that would floor more sensitive species. Your monos are probably more stressed by all the water changes and tank changes than the actual water quality or chemistry.

Sit back, let the tank settle down. There are fishes that need tender, loving care, but monos aren't among them. Nor, really, are archers. These are the fish equivalents of spider plants rather than orchids. Assuming the tank is basically managed properly, and the filter eventually settles down, they will provide you with much pleasure for many years.

Until an aquarist has seen archers spitting in their own aquarium -- they don't deserve the title "aquarist"!

Cheers,

Neale

Today they actually seem to be doing great, although I am starting to notice small white spots on two of them. Is this something I need to take care of after the tank has finished re-cycling?

Otherwise they are eating and swimming like normal.

And yes, quite often the best part of my day is watching my Archers spit for their food! They have actually now began spitting at my hands before I have even placed the food in the leaves above their water! Its incredible!

Thanks
Justin

 

[justinp]

Actually I forgot to mention that beside my Monos tank is a tall stool where my cat like to sleep. I noticed in the past that the cat never seemed to pay any attention to the fish even though they seemed to like to hang out near his end of the tank. When I moved the fish, the cat wouldnt sleep on his stool and actually slept alot on the floor below the hospital tank. At first I thought it was just coincidence but now that the Monos are moved back to their old tank, the cat is back on his stool all the time! And the Monos are back to swimming right beside him!
Generally when the cat leaves the stool, the Monos leave that corner and just swim around until he comes back...I just found this kind of amazing!

Have you ever heard of anything like this before? The Monos are very friendly to anyone who approaches the glass but its a little different with the cat, there seems to be some wonderful connection there...Unless Im just crazy!

 

[nmonks]

It's not crazy. I've seen cats that enjoy watching aquaria. Whether they realise there are fish in there, or just like the movement, I don't know. But it's nice to provide your cat with some entertainment, and providing the cat cannot catch the fish, the fish probably enjoy the company, too. I'm sure fish get bored, so there more stimulation in their lives, the better, in my opinion.

Certainly with some of the cichlids and pufferfish, it's pretty obvious that they like to be "part of the family".

Cheers,

Neale

 

[justinp]

Hey nmonks

I have noticed that the Monos are definetly suffering from what looks like some sort of bacterial disease. One has just a few small white spots on his tail and body, another has quite a few white spots on one side of his body which are quite bumpy, he also has the two large bumps above his mouth, and the last (and worst) Mono has very very large "whitish" areas covering both sides of his body and smaller spots on his head, he also will not eat and hides all day behind some rocks. Basically, they are looking pretty bad! Ive never had fish with this many problems all at once, in the 10 years Ive kept fish (7 of which were freshwater though). Im not sure what to do as you know the situation with the tank still cycling after it crashed...I would think medicating them now while its cycling would be bad for the cycle, so do you have any advice? It has been getting worse for the past two days now.

Thanks
Justin

By the way, is it very common to get these bacterial type diseases in Brackish Water? It seems like it should be less of a problem with the salt, especially at the high end of Brackish Water like this tank...SG 1.016.