Molly With Ick :(

[fredbygrace]

I have a female Molly with ick. how should I treat her???

 

[helterskelter]

Myxazin or protozin it what i like to use.
Treat every 3 days for10-12 day's

Can also raise the temp to 82oF to help kill them off.

 

[theotheragentm]

I believe it's 87F to ensure you are treating ich. At lower temperatures that are warm, you are increasing the spread of ich.

 

[Tommy Gun]

Please don't think that I am trying to disagree with anyone, but I think I may be able to add a bit more insight, or at least more options for your Ich.

First - and this is my opinion, and only my opinion - my thinking is that using medications as an only resort can be a slippery slope for us, and our fish because many of them can be harmful to our fish as well as the Ich protozoa. In fact, using meds too often or even adding them too quickly can increase the risk that our fish experience osmotic shock due to the sudden change in TDS. Additionally, a lot of the meds used for treating Ich can even prove to be harmful to us. For example, I believe the state of California recognizes Malachite Green as a carcinogen, and I have also heard/read that it can cause birth defects when pregnant women are exposed to it too much.

With that in mind, the treatment I really like and have had some very positive results from is the 'salt and heat' method. If you are not familiar with this treatment, it is basically adding one tablespoon of salt (NaCl - e.g. table salt) for every 5 gallons of actual water in the tank (or about half that much if scaleless fish or tetras are in the tank) while increasing the water temp to the 85 degree (F) range. The reason this works is because FW Ich does not deal well with the salt and the higher water temp - as opposed to preventing Ich from spreading - actually speeds up the life cycle of Ich (so, in some cases, it accelerates the spread of Ich). The reason the heat is important is because, while in its 'white spot' form, Ich is more or less impervious to medications (and even salt)...so, by speeding up that life cycle, it is hoped that the white spots will fall off sooner rather than later, at which time it can be treated more effectively (in this case, by the salt).

It is also important to note that you should always always always treat for ich for at least two weeks after the last white spot has disappeared on all of your fish. This is because of the fact that we cannot always see Ich with our naked eye, so the elongated treatment helps reduce the risk of a recurrence by causing harm or killing Ich while in its free-swimming stage.

Also, I have read in a number of places that what I would call the 'myth' of fish not being able to deal with iodine is only somewhat true and they can handle it in smaller doses for some period of time - meaning, you can use iodized table salt for the 'salt and heat' treatment. To add to that, since you do not need to remove any carbon filter media during this treatment, as long as the carbon is still viable, most of that iodine spends very little time in the water.


While I am sure that a lot of hobbyists will disagree with me on what I have said here, I assure you that the salt and heat treatment, while not as fast as medications might be, really does work and really is less stressful on fish...and there are plenty of resources available which support that.

==============
Oh, and one more thing....If you are going to raise the water temp in your tank, do you and your fish a big favor by adding some additional measures to ensure that there is enough dissolved oxygen in the water since, at higher temps, water can hold less oxygen.

 

[theotheragentm]

Salt does not aid in the treatment directly. Salt neutralizes some of the properties of nitrates, which will definitely not hurt, but it is heat that is the treatment. If ich is just making a physical appearance or you are noticing the fish rubbing and flicking themselves against objects, I would definitely recommend heat as a treatment. If the fish is displaying heavy signs of ich, I would not be opposed to medicines. As a note, heat should be turned up slowly, a couple degrees an hour.

 

[Tommy Gun]

Hmmmm....maybe I shouldn't say anything because I realize that I am a new member and all...and the last thing I want is to ruffle anyone's feathers, but you are slightly off on your assessment of salt theotheragentm...as well as the heat to some extent. Here is why:

First, raising the temperature of the water helps when treating Ich because it provides a more ideal environment for the parasite, hence it can 'grow up' and reproduce faster. With the understanding that the parasite reproduces shortly after falling off our fish and hence, we cannot witness this with our naked eyes...it may seem as though the Ich is going away because the white spot has left our fish due to the increased water temperature, it is very much still present in our tanks. In fact, one Ich tomont (which is the name used to explain the parasite after it has left a fish) can reproduce into literally hundreds of thermonts (which is the name used to describe 'baby ich' which has just been 'born', so to speak). So, perhaps we can garner a little bit more insight into how water temp affects ich by searching the internet using those terms - tomont, thermonts, or even trophont (which is the name used to describe the parasite when it is in its most visible life stage; the white spots)

It is also important to note that, like I said, we cannot effectively treat (read: kill) Ich when it is in its white spot or trophont state...or at least without killing the fish as well. And yes, not even with medications or salt. So we use the 'heat' to create that ideal environment so that we can treat the problem effectively...even though we cannot see it. THIS is why it is always suggested...even on the instructions of every Ich medication I have ever seen...to treat for Ich long after the last white spot has disappeared. ONE VERY IMPORTANT side note though: It is almost always advised NOT to raise water temp when treating for ich with medications (NOT including salt) for at least a couple reasons including, but not limited to the fact that meds further reduce the water's ability to hold dissolve oxygen, which is an even more perilous problem for fish who may already be suffering from breathing hardships due to Ich.

Back to the salt point though...oh, and let me preface this by stating that by using the term 'salt', I am referring to sodium chloride (NaCl) which is only one of many types of salt (although, arguably the most common for I suppose)

Salt is actually a very common method for the treatment of quite a few freshwater illnesses/diseases including parasites (which Ich is) and even some fungal problems I believe. To the best of my understanding right now, salt is useful because it creates an osmoregulation problem, which cause the protozoa to 'burst' apart, so to speak. That being said, if using salt in our FW aquarium(s)...and saltwater as well to some degree...we should always add it to the tank slowly so that our fish/inverts can become acclimated before their cells are effected too dramatically -- which, in fact, is why many of us use much more in depth acclimation procedures versus simply 'floating' the bag until water temps match.

While is may sound like a double-standard of sorts, salt also irritates our fish (which can be viewed as being a bad thing), but this, in turn, results in our fish producing a stress (slime) coat that is thicker and/or generated more rapidly. This is important to know because, as I am sure most, if not all of us already know, a healthy fish can easily 'fight off' ich because, when healthy, their immune systems are very effective --- and the stress (slime) coat is part of that immune system.

Lastly, just to clarify...because I know this is a very common argument that is brought up in this sort of discussion...before jumping to the conclusion that salt cannot kill Ich simply because it is also a problem in saltwater tanks (which obviously have a lot of salt in them), it is important to know that, while both share a common name and very similar appearance, they are two totally different things.

Again, I sincerely apologize for being what may be a bit too 'bold' by disagreeing with you theotheragentm since I am so new to this forum...but I hope everyone can understand that even though I am new here, I am not new to the hobby.

 

[nmonks]

Good post, and I'm certainly not going to disagree with you.

I'd perhaps add that, in my opinion, based on a lot of experience of dealing with hobbyists, I categorically and absolutely consider mollies better brackish water fish than freshwater fish. Mollies are more disease prone when kept in freshwater tanks. Whether this is a question of salinity, or the salt detoxifying nitrite/nitrate isn't clear to me. It may be both. But in my view, anyone who puts mollies in a freshwater tank is asking for trouble.

I don't tend to raise the temperature when treating for whitespot. Indeed, I don't tend to use salt either. Far better to rely on commercial medications. I like "eSHa EXIT" and find it safe even with delicate fish such as puffers.

Cheers, Neale

Hmmmm....maybe I shouldn't say anything because I realize that I am a new member and all...

 

[Tommy Gun]

Good post, and I'm certainly not going to disagree with you.

I'd perhaps add that, in my opinion, based on a lot of experience of dealing with hobbyists, I categorically and absolutely consider mollies better brackish water fish than freshwater fish. Mollies are more disease prone when kept in freshwater tanks. Whether this is a question of salinity, or the salt detoxifying nitrite/nitrate isn't clear to me. It may be both. But in my view, anyone who puts mollies in a freshwater tank is asking for trouble.

I don't tend to raise the temperature when treating for whitespot. Indeed, I don't tend to use salt either. Far better to rely on commercial medications. I like "eSHa EXIT" and find it safe even with delicate fish such as puffers.

Cheers, Neale

Hmmmm....maybe I shouldn't say anything because I realize that I am a new member and all...

Hello nmonks! Please let me say that it is an honor to 'speak' with you on this forum...I have read a lot of your literature, both on here...and hopefully I am not wrong when in believing that I have read quite a few of your publicized articles. Without wanting to hijack this thread, I did want to say that, to some point, agree that mollies are not 100% best when kept in freshwater, although I have only kept them in a saltwater tank (still only toying with the idea of a brackish tank right now) and have noticed that they are almost different fish completely - difference being they are better looking/more healthy in appearance in saltwater. However, should it not be pointed out that 'brackish' water does not solely entail the addition of the sodium chloride version of salt, but would instead require the use of marine salt mixes since they contain much much more than regular NaCl? (Certainly not trying to argue...but rather garner some clarification in case we may, or may not, be mislead into thinking brackish tanks are just freshwater + table salt).

Again, I apologize if I am embarassing myself by saying this, but it is great to 'meet' you.

 

[nmonks]

Greetings, and thanks for the kind words.

Indeed, by preference I would always recommend marine salt mix over tonic salt ("aquarium salt") when keeping mollies, though tonic salt is better than no salt at all. And as far as proper brackish water fishkeeping goes, it *has* to be marine salt mix.

But this needs a little clarification. As far as reducing the toxicity of nitrate goes, plain tonic salt works fine. Adding tonic salt to a molly aquarium will help a good deal, because mollies are very sensitive to nitrate. On the other hand, what tonic salt doesn't do is increase the hardness. Since mollies need hard, alkaline water, adding marine salt mix instead of tonic salt "kills two birds with one stone", raising the salinity *and* the hardness at the same time. If you live in a hard water area already, adding tonic salt might be all the "therapy" your mollies need to stay healthy. But personally, I prefer keeping mollies in a true brackish water tank. As you correctly observe, mollies are hardier, bigger, more colourful, and easy to look after under such conditions.

For brackish water fish, you have to use marine salt mix, because these fish are sensitive to ambient levels of TDS (total dissolved solids) as well as salinity. Only marine salt mix creates the right water conditions for them. Tonic salt is better than nothing, and in the short term could be used, but no-one should plan on using tonic salt as a long-term way of creating a brackish water aquarium.

Cheers, Neale

 

[kat11180]

. For example, I believe the state of California recognizes Malachite Green as a carcinogen, and I have also heard/read that it can cause birth defects when pregnant women are exposed to it too much.

wanna say thanks to you on the above, im heavy pregnant and had to start treatment on my tank, but from what you have wrote i think il rather try other methods or just get my partner to add any futher doses thank you so much.

 

[helterskelter]

. For example, I believe the state of California recognizes Malachite Green as a carcinogen, and I have also heard/read that it can cause birth defects when pregnant women are exposed to it too much.

wanna say thanks to you on the above, im heavy pregnant and had to start treatment on my tank, but from what you have wrote i think il rather try other methods or just get my partner to add any futher doses thank you so much.

I missed the malicate part.

Yes malicate is carcinogen and this is why it's banned in the UK on Table Farms, but Ok is used for non food fish. I my self used to almost bath in the stuff when doing fish dips before 1997 How ever i've never suffered yet (well don't think i have)

Just when your using it, make suer you don't get on your skin (unlike me) or you dont get it on anything your eating.

If your worried about using it then their are tonnes more out there that more dangerous, like crossing the road, and avoiding brackon as their spores are carcinogen's as well.

 

[kat11180]

. For example, I believe the state of California recognizes Malachite Green as a carcinogen, and I have also heard/read that it can cause birth defects when pregnant women are exposed to it too much.

wanna say thanks to you on the above, im heavy pregnant and had to start treatment on my tank, but from what you have wrote i think il rather try other methods or just get my partner to add any futher doses thank you so much.

I missed the malicate part.

Yes malicate is carcinogen and this is why it's banned in the UK on Table Farms, but Ok is used for non food fish. I my self used to almost bath in the stuff when doing fish dips before 1997 How ever i've never suffered yet (well don't think i have)

Just when your using it, make suer you don't get on your skin (unlike me) or you dont get it on anything your eating.

If your worried about using it then their are tonnes more out there that more dangerous, like crossing the road, and avoiding brackon as their spores are carcinogen's as well.

fair point with the road thing lol but il avoid the stuff anyway (not risking baby as am high risk during pregnancy anyway and more risks is just silly lol) and it tends to go everywhere that stuff for some reason i always end up with it on my hands etc no matter how carefull i am .

 

[helterskelter]

LOL it's funny the Gov banns all these stuff that many cause a problem to 1 in a 100,000 people yet stuff like smoking and drink that kill ten's of thousands of people every year are fine!!!!!!!

Just put on some latex gloves and your be ok.
Good luck with little one though as well

 

[kat11180]

thanks helterskelter. hopefully i wont need to treat tank again anyway lol. and thanks for the good luck just cant wait for it to be over and done with now.

 

[littlest]

LOL it's funny the Gov banns all these stuff that many cause a problem to 1 in a 100,000 people yet stuff like smoking and drink that kill ten's of thousands of people every year are fine!!!!!!!

Just put on some latex gloves and your be ok.
Good luck with little one though as well

I was reading this thread while smoking and thinking "urgh, carcinogen, won't be using that" then I realised quite how ridiculous I was being as I took another drag from my cancer stick.