Molly With Ick :(

[Tommy Gun]

LOL, I agree that Malachite Green isn't the worst thing in the world....but was only trying to make a point about how, as far as I understand, much more 'far reaching' the use of medications can be. Honestly, the last thing on my mind was to spark any debate as to what the worst carcinogen may be...and in fact, to be extremely honest, while I don't live in the state, or even near it really, I have noticed labeling on a whole lot of things that California recognizes as cancer causing agents. Although, being a parent myself, perhaps there is no such thing as being overly cautious when pregnant...especially around an aquarium (malachite green being only one of a many potential concerns)

Let me also apologize for sparking any sort of thread 'hijacking', since this seems to be what may be happening here...but I do have to ask:

When speaking of salt reducing the toxicity of nitrAte (NO3), do we really mean it reduces the toxicity - or at least the negative effects - of nitrItes (No2)? Based upon what I have read/heard, salt has little effect on nitrate, but conversely, does help reverse or reduce the ability of nitrite to bind with hemoglobin...which in turn, effectively 'suffocates' our fish because, once bound with each other, oxygen cannot be carried -- which helps explain some of the symptoms of nitrite poisoning (brown/discolored gills, heavy breathing, gasping for air at the water's surface, lethargy, etc...).

Again, just wanted to clarify...and I agree, I could certainly be wrong in that salt can also help out with nitrates, but like I said, I have never heard of that before and couldn't find any further information on that point via an internet search (but admit, I wasn't looking all that hard either...figured I would just ask here )

 

[helterskelter]

I'm no expert on biology so not got a clue sure Neale may have something.
I try not to use salt at all or when i do it's as a 3% salt dip. What i believe though is that the sale reduces the pressure on the internal organs allowing them to work better. This is why so many people do it with mollies, as these fish need perfect water quality in freshwater or their the first to suffer.

 

[nmonks]

Salt has been used to detoxify nitrite in freshwater aquaculture for decades. It is absolutely standard practise on catfish farms for example, to mitigate problems with overcrowding. The dose required is very low (0.1 g/litre).

As for nitrate the evidence is less clear, but recent studies seem to show as salinity goes up, toxicity goes down.

I discussed molly health with the editor of TFH magazine a while back, and his opinion was that "nitrogen-free, hard, basic water is the most crucial factor in molly health". What salt does is reduce the toxicity of nitrite and nitrate, making it easier for mollies to put up with the poor conditions in most aquaria. There's some variation is results though. Both he and I agreed that the best P. latipinna sailfin mollies in terms of size and colour were reared in seawater aquaria. There's simply no debate here. Once you've seen a 15 cm sailfin molly you'll realise what most people have seen in fish tanks are utter rubbish! On the other hand, the hybrid mollies reared in Florida are raised in hard water ponds, while those from Singapore are raised in brackish water ponds.

One problem for the aquarist though is that adding salt to an aquaculture pond isn't the same thing as adding it to an aquarium. The selection of fish that are farmed in ponds are all large and typically salt-tolerant anyway (carp, Ictalurus catfish, tilapia). So adding small amounts of salt poses no risk to them. Adding salt to tanks with things like neons and other small fish from naturally salt-free water is less certainly safe in the long term. Hence the recommendation against adding salt all the time as a "tonic".

Cheers, Neale

 

[Tommy Gun]

Thanks for the clarification Neale -- especially with the info and link to research on salt versus nitrates. Apparently, while I do read a lot of aquaria-related resources, this has escaped me until now.

I discussed molly health with the editor of TFH magazine a while back

Again, I don't mean to keep getting off track with the original intent of this thread, but the reason I recognized you is because TFH is one of the few hobby related resources I read religiously. That being said, I am very interested to know what you might say/think/feel about the article that was published within the livebearers unlimited section of the July 2007 issue of TFH, which, on page 48, Mr. Coletti clearly states that the commonly held and propagated belief that mollies are brackish water fish is wrong. He then goes on to say "'mollies' is the common name for a subset of livebearing freshwater fish..." (Coletti, T. pgs. 48-49) -- which I felt as though might be a heavy implication that mollies are really freshwater fish which hold the ability to move into brackish water and/or saltwater, unlike many other FW fish. Granted, I may be misreading or misinterpreting those comments; which only bolsters my curiosity further. (For the record, starting any debate or seeming as though I doubt you are the least of my intentions here...but I am once again, seeking some clarification to satisfy my curiosity)


Reference

Coletti, T. (2007). The Fancy Molly: The most Spectacular Freshwater Fish You've Never Seen. Tropical Fish Hobbyists, 11, 48 - 50

 

[nmonks]

Greetings,

Ted Coletti is always a good a writer, and his articles are invariably articulate and interesting. But in this instance I think he's wrong. I haven't read the article though, so I'm basic this posting on your interpretation.

As far as mollies go, he is correct to say they are not a single species. They used to be their own genus, Mollienesia. That's not the case any more, and they're currently in the genus Poecilia. The mollies sold in aquarium shops are hybrids of at least 4 species: P. velifera, P. latipinna, P. mexicana, and P. sphenops. The "liberty molly" is supposed to be P. salvatoris, but again this may or may not be a pure-bred thing as far as aquarium stocks go.

He's also correct to observe that wild mollies are found in fresh, brackish and saltwater habitats. They aren't migratory though, so Ted is right about many populations being fully freshwater fish. There are plenty of molly populations in landlocked lakes that never see the sea! But the wild isn't the same as the aquarium...

In the aquarium, this seems to me absolutely unarguable: mollies are easier to keep in brackish or salt water. When kept in such conditions, finrot and fungus are less common. Marine salt mix in particular both raises the salinity and the carbonate hardness. Spend any time on any forum and you'll see message after message from people with mollies kept in freshwater, and those mollies have fungus and finrot. You almost never see those messages from people with mollies in brackish or saltwater tanks. Do they need the salt because they need saline water? Likely not. But the salt does help deal with nitrogenous wastes, and the hardness is also critically important.

For me, it's a no-brainer: if you want to keep mollies easily, then keep them in brackish water.

Cheers, Neale

That being said, I am very interested to know what you might say/think/feel about the article that was published within the livebearers unlimited section of the July 2007 issue of TFH, which, on page 48, Mr. Coletti clearly states that the commonly held and propagated belief that mollies are brackish water fish is wrong.

 

[Tommy Gun]

Neale,

Just to further clarify, I do agree with you to a large extent about mollies being better off in brackish to salt tanks - which is based upon my own experience with these fish in my SW tank, and quite a few of my friends as well - so, I was just asking a curious question is all. I also agree that I have read thousands of posts on forums other than this one which deal with mollies having issues...and now that you point it out, perhaps I was less 'lucky' than I at first thought since I haven't been confronted with any of the same issues...yet (but am obviously less worried now).

Again, I apologize for using this thread to seek my own information, and will refrain from doing so in the future.