Miles' Fishless Cycle

Well, first double zero :) In all truth the Ammonia isn't really looking a vivid as the card shows for zero however its a million miles away from 0.25. Also the Nitrites have dropped to zero so we need to put some more food (ammonia) into the mix tonight so the poor little dears don't starve :)

Miles
 
The ammonia seems to be doing well but the Nitrites are doing the spike thing again. I had hopes when it managed to get down to 2ppm but it looks like it's back up to 5+ again for the 2nd reading. Will watch to see what it does :)

Odd that the ammonia doesn't seem to be going to a vibrant yellow - privately we classifying it as 0.1 but we're treating it as zero for the purposes of dosing etc. Is this just us being too picky, a problem or just a feature of the test kit?

Miles
 
No. That's normal. Nothing to really worry about. Once it goes through the nitrites completely and by the time you actually add the fish, it will be right on the yellow and you can rest easy. :good:


Remember 1ppm processes to 2.7ppm nitrite, so it is going to take a little time to get that colony to catch up. It will, don't worry.
 
The oxygen is heavier than the hydrogen and ppm is equivalent to mg/l. So in terms of molecules, it is 1:1, in terms of mass (which is what we measure) it is approximately 1:2.7 (apparently - I have not done the calculations myself).
 
Thanks for that KK

Well the ammonia has gone down to 0 again which is nice but the spike is continuing. Following up on a link from TwoTanks I read a little into Dr Tim's site and noted some interesting differences between the Add and Wait / Top up methods we use here and his suggestion. Most notably:
1) a max dose of 3ppm
2) the use of the Nitrite zero as the trigger for more feeding (though I need to work that through a little as some of the text appears contradictory - certainly the graph appears well out of whack with the text).
3) a strong requirement not to allow the Nitrite spike to continue as it will cause issues for the N-Bacs.

Leaving aside the issue of use or not of the Dr Tim in a bottle product the target of 30 days to cycle is an interesting one as I'm well past that :)

Something to ponder on - do you have any thoughts?

Miles
 
It is based on molar mass:


NH3 = 1 N, and 3 H atoms. Nitrogen is 14g per mole, hydrogen is 1g per mole. 14g*1 + 1g*3 = 17g A total of 17g per mole of ammonia.

NO2 = 1 N and 2 Oxygen. Nitrogen is 14g per mole, oxygen is 16g per mole. 14*1 + 16*2 = 46g A total of 62g per mole of nitrite. (Nitrate is 62 grams, based on the extra oxygen atom in the molecule.)

So, mole for mole, one mole of ammonia (17g) produces one mole of nitrite (46g). The nitrite is 2.7 times heavier than the ammonia. NItrate is 3.6 times heavier than the ammonia.
 
Something to ponder on - do you have any thoughts?
Well, ideally I would agree with nitrite reaching 5 ppm is reason for a water change. Yes, high nitrites cause problems, I have seen it over and over again on these forums. Yes, water changes reduce the likelihood of problems, I have also seen that again and again on here.. Only up to 3 ppm ammonia..? Well, that gives you fewer bacteria to work with, but over 5 ppm ammonia gives you the wrong bacteria, so he's erring on the cautious side of things. I usually go for 4 ppm as my recommendation, it seems to work well.

I also believe in qualifying week, I have seen bacteria go wobbly 2-5 days after finish of cycle all too often, especially if the stocking does not match the ammonia dosing. For 1/4-1/3 stocking, 3 ppm in 24 hours is probably enough, for 2/3-3/4 stocking, I think 4 ppm in 12 hours is more realistic. Quantity of ammonia required does depend on what you want to do with stocking when you are done.

I also believe in 95% water change after cycle is done, before fish are added. Just in case there was something in the ammonia which is not on the label.. these things are often produced or packaged in factories alongside nasty cleaning products which may harm fish.

My cycle target is also 30 day.. + qualifying week. Different water supplies have different amounts of bacteria in them, which can affect the cycle by days.. as can any sort of pH change.

p.s. I will be starting my first fish-less cycle on my own tank in about three weeks, watch my signature for a link!
 
So, if I still have a spike tonight a water change would seen sensible and knock back the amount of ammonia to protect against another one?

what about the possibility of not doing an ammonia dose until seeing the nitrite dropping (after the.small redose from the water change?
 
A water change is more advisable than starving your a-bacs, imho.
 
So, if I still have a spike tonight a water change would seen sensible and knock back the amount of ammonia to protect against another one?
I would water change first, then redose ammonia as needed.

what about the possibility of not doing an ammonia dose until seeing the nitrite dropping (after the.small redose from the water change?
I do not know enough to comment on this. All I do know is that the ammonia->nitrite bacteria *may possibly* start dying off after 24 hours without ammonia or aeration (water movement over the colony).

The cycle we do here is considerably more vigorous than the one suggested in the link, and thus it takes longer and the results should be more robust.
 
fair enough I'll not put the A-Bacs on a starvation diet, but the key question is what level to dose back up to. With al the spiking going on it suggests that 2ppm is almost too much unless I want to get into a 100% water change ever two days!

miles
 
If you want to experiment, try 2 ppm every other day, for example..?
 

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