Massive Die Off

[chadschuster0321]

I recently introduced two Kissing Gourami's into my tank, and two days later my tetras had ick, two catfish had died, and both the Gourami's had died. I've lost all but one of my tetras to ick (the last one seems to be recovering) and I've lost a Discus aswell.
 
I noticed a snail in the tank, could this be causing problems? And does anyone know of any solutions to protect the rest of my fish?

 

[fluttermoth]

Could you post more details of your set up, please?
 
Things like; tank size, how long it's been running, whether your water is hard or soft, any water test results you might have, and a complete list of fish.
 
Many health problems in fish are due to environment, and the more information we have, the more likely we are to be able to help

 

[chadschuster0321]

The Tank is 90 gallons and has soft water. It's been running about a month and a half.
 
Before the die-off it was stocked with (deceased fish crossed out):
1x Angel
3x BA Tetras (1x Remaining)
1x Senegal Bichir
1x Discus
2x Kissing Gouramis
1x Gold Gourami
1x Pearl Gourami
1x Needlenose Gar
2x Columbian Sharks (Was Temp till Brackish tank setup)
 
I'll post any additional water parameters if needed, 

 

[Munroco]

The likeliest explanation is that the kissing gouramis had white spot and infected the rest. I personally don't use a quarantine tank but its really the only way to avoid things like this.

 

[chadschuster0321]

The likeliest explanation is that the kissing gouramis had white spot and infected the rest. I personally don't use a quarantine tank but its really the only way to avoid things like this.

 
Should I just continue to treat the tank with medication and pray for the best?

 

[StevenF]

Should I just continue to treat the tank with medication and pray for the best?
 

Yes you should continue to treat the tank.  You want the tank to be free of ick before adding more fish.  my personal preference would be UV sterilization and elevated water temperature  but if you are doing well with medication keep going with that.

 

[RainboWBacoN420]

How long was the tank cycled for before you put the fish in?
Also, over what period of time did you add the fish and how did you add them?

 

[woodward_tweet]

Ditto! Only running for 6 weeks and with that amount of fish... Sounds like your tank is still cycling.

 

[Byron]

There are (or rather were) some serious issues with the combination of fish initially.  When the time comes to restock, please research the species beforehand; issues with compatibility (and this goes much deeper than just behaviour/aggression) can leave fish stressed, and that seriously weakens the immune system so they are unable to fight off protozoan, parasites, bacterial issues, etc.
 
Once an aquarium is established, any fish additions should be held in a QT for a few weeks.  Ich is fairly easy to eradicate if caught early, but it can spread very rapidly if not.  But there are far worse diseases out there, and some can take weeks to show up.
 
Byron.

 

[chadschuster0321]

There are (or rather were) some serious issues with the combination of fish initially.  When the time comes to restock, please research the species beforehand; issues with compatibility (and this goes much deeper than just behaviour/aggression) can leave fish stressed, and that seriously weakens the immune system so they are unable to fight off protozoan, parasites, bacterial issues, etc.
 
Once an aquarium is established, any fish additions should be held in a QT for a few weeks.  Ich is fairly easy to eradicate if caught early, but it can spread very rapidly if not.  But there are far worse diseases out there, and some can take weeks to show up.
 
Byron.

 
What compatibility issues were there for future reference? From what I had been told at my local aquarium shop, it was okay.

 

[Byron]

I don't know your level of experience, so I will try to explain as best I can.
 
Some fish are shoaling fish, meaning that they live in groups, often very large, and there is an inherent need for a group in the aquarium or the fish will be stressed, which leads to other problems as I mentioned previously.  So such fish must be acquired in a group.  Discus are shoaling, as are angelfish.  I would recommend no less than five of either, or more--this depends upon the tank size, five being the fewest you should have but more if the tank will accommodate them.  These two species should not be maintained in the same tank; primarily, discus are shy fish and can easily be out-competed for food by the more aggressive angelfish.  Tetras are also shoaling fish, which covers the Buenos Aires Tetra (I am assuming BA is Buenos Aires); here I would suggest six at absolute minimum, but more would be better (this applies to most all of the characins, which includes the tetras, hatchetfish and pencilfish).
 
At this point we hit another snag, and that is the sedate nature of discus and angelfish.  Fast swimming or boisterous fish should not be kept with sedate fish as this again will stress them out.  When many tetras are kept in too small a group, aggression frequently appears or increases, and this often leads to fin nipping of themselves but especially sedate fish, so another risk here.
 
Gourami are also sedate, but not good matches for cichlids.  And male gourami are territorial, and some species like the Blue Gourami, very much so.  Females are usually less aggressive, but other members have reported a female blue gourami killing other gourami, so this is not a hard and fast rule.  Gourami species should generally not be combined, at least not when we are talking of the medium to larger species as here.  They are semi-shoaling, and tank space is very important with some species.  A group of the Pearls would be fine in a 90g, but not with Blues.  Or Kissing, which are very large (reaching 12 inches) and one has to be very careful with tankmates.  Although it is commonly available, it is in fact not a good home aquarium fish unless it has a spacious tank. It interestingly shares features with some of the larger cichlids: the jaw-locking (the inappropriately-named "kissing") aggressive behaviour, and the extendible mouthparts with teeth designed to rasp algae from rocks. The jaw-locking between fish may often lead to jaw damage, and fish with jaw damage may be unable to eat; if persistent, one of the fish usually dies after a few weeks. This aggressive behaviour is not only related to breeding and male territory, but also occurs to defend feeding areas. The fish may also decide to take out this aggression on other species in the aquarium.
 
The bichir I know of but have not maintained, so I will refer you to some reliable data on this fish:
http/www.seriouslyfish.com/species/polypterus-senegalus-senegalus/
And the same for the needlenose gar, which gets up to a foot and is not a true community fish:
http/www.seriouslyfish.com/species/xenentodon-cancila/
 
The so-called Columbian Sharks I assume you know about.  Here I would just offer a maxim I learned the hard way many years ago but one that has prevented problems for me and many fish since I did: never acquire any fish for which you do not at the time have a suitable aquarium (size, decor, other fish) that will work at maturity.  It is simply not fair to any fish to provide less than the best we can right from acquisition.  Situations may change down the road, or the fish may experience considerable stress along the way, and this again weakens them.
 
Feel free to ask anything from this, we are all here to help when we can.  We have the fishes' interests first and foremost.
 
Byron.

 

[chadschuster0321]

I don't know your level of experience, so I will try to explain as best I can.
 
Some fish are shoaling fish, meaning that they live in groups, often very large, and there is an inherent need for a group in the aquarium or the fish will be stressed, which leads to other problems as I mentioned previously.  So such fish must be acquired in a group.  Discus are shoaling, as are angelfish.  I would recommend no less than five of either, or more--this depends upon the tank size, five being the fewest you should have but more if the tank will accommodate them.  These two species should not be maintained in the same tank; primarily, discus are shy fish and can easily be out-competed for food by the more aggressive angelfish.  Tetras are also shoaling fish, which covers the Buenos Aires Tetra (I am assuming BA is Buenos Aires); here I would suggest six at absolute minimum, but more would be better (this applies to most all of the characins, which includes the tetras, hatchetfish and pencilfish).
 
At this point we hit another snag, and that is the sedate nature of discus and angelfish.  Fast swimming or boisterous fish should not be kept with sedate fish as this again will stress them out.  When many tetras are kept in too small a group, aggression frequently appears or increases, and this often leads to fin nipping of themselves but especially sedate fish, so another risk here.
 
Gourami are also sedate, but not good matches for cichlids.  And male gourami are territorial, and some species like the Blue Gourami, very much so.  Females are usually less aggressive, but other members have reported a female blue gourami killing other gourami, so this is not a hard and fast rule.  Gourami species should generally not be combined, at least not when we are talking of the medium to larger species as here.  They are semi-shoaling, and tank space is very important with some species.  A group of the Pearls would be fine in a 90g, but not with Blues.  Or Kissing, which are very large (reaching 12 inches) and one has to be very careful with tankmates.  Although it is commonly available, it is in fact not a good home aquarium fish unless it has a spacious tank. It interestingly shares features with some of the larger cichlids: the jaw-locking (the inappropriately-named "kissing") aggressive behaviour, and the extendible mouthparts with teeth designed to rasp algae from rocks. The jaw-locking between fish may often lead to jaw damage, and fish with jaw damage may be unable to eat; if persistent, one of the fish usually dies after a few weeks. This aggressive behaviour is not only related to breeding and male territory, but also occurs to defend feeding areas. The fish may also decide to take out this aggression on other species in the aquarium.
 
The bichir I know of but have not maintained, so I will refer you to some reliable data on this fish:
http/www.seriouslyfish.com/species/polypterus-senegalus-senegalus/
And the same for the needlenose gar, which gets up to a foot and is not a true community fish:
http/www.seriouslyfish.com/species/xenentodon-cancila/
 
The so-called Columbian Sharks I assume you know about.  Here I would just offer a maxim I learned the hard way many years ago but one that has prevented problems for me and many fish since I did: never acquire any fish for which you do not at the time have a suitable aquarium (size, decor, other fish) that will work at maturity.  It is simply not fair to any fish to provide less than the best we can right from acquisition.  Situations may change down the road, or the fish may experience considerable stress along the way, and this again weakens them.
 
Feel free to ask anything from this, we are all here to help when we can.  We have the fishes' interests first and foremost.
 
Byron.

I was aware that they weren't kept in adequate group sizes, and I've been trying to get more of each species as I get paid and funds permit. The Columbian Sharks had been sold to me as a freshwater Catfish, and I was unaware that they had to be kept in Brackish water untill I saw a picture of them online. As far as the Discus goes, they had been selling a donated Discus for really cheap ($20) that was alone at my local fish store. I assumed it would be happier in a group, and I've been checking if the store had ever restocked (they told me they get Discus very rarely) and have also been trying to get them from private breeders, but they are insanely hard to find. (I live in a Rural part of California) The Angels was originally in a group of 3, but sadly lost the first 2 early on and have been meaning to get more.
 
I'm going to get more tetras once I clear up the ick, and probably stick with just Gouramis, Angels, Tetras, and the Gar, the Discus are just too hard to find and too expensive.
 
Is a group of 4 Angels adequete? And what would be a good schooling size for the Tetras? I was originally planning 6-8. 
 
Thanks so much for your help, I've kept reptiles for years now, but I'm rather new to keeping fish and really am trying, I'll try to learn off this experience and fix any problems in the tank.

 

[the_lock_man]

Now bear in mind I have never kept angels, but I have read extensively.
 
AIUI, angels aren't fully shoaling in the way that characins are. Where you get a group of 5 or 6, you may find that a male and a female will pair off and mate, and at this point the other angels should be removed, for their own safety. However, you can't just lump a male and a female together, and hope for the best, they have to be allowed to choose their own mates. Now, it might be that if you have a group of 5 or 6 angels, there might not be a compatible pair that want to mate, so you might not have a problem. But equally, it's very common to find that you do get a pair.
 
On this forum, we have on many occasions recommended a single angel.
 
A group of 4 probably wouldn't work, as a group of them needs to be large enough, which is why Byron said 5. If you only had 4 of them, they would again be stressed.

 

[Byron]

I agree.  My last post was necessarily lengthy to hopefully respond as you (chad) asked.  You can keep a sole angelfish, though it is not something I would recommend.  This fish lives in small (compared to other fish like characins) groups, and they naturally establish hierarchies.  I personally prefer keeping fish as nature intended them to be, and not force them into completely un-natural situations when this is not for some specific reason absolutely necessary--see the Loiselle citation in green in my signature.  So angelfish should preferably be maintained in groups of five or more, in suitably spacious tanks.  When there are fewer, it is much more likely that the hierarchy will result in one or more fish being picked on, leading to severe stress, ill health, and always early death.  A group of five or more is more likely to avoid this.
 
However, here we get to the second issue that lockman raised, and that is the pairing off.  Assuming there are males and females within the group (and discerning this in young fish is next to impossible) one or perhaps more pairs will form.  When one does, this can be havoc for the tank and the remaining angelfish.  Most aquarists will suggest moving either the pair to their own quarters, or removing the other angelfish.
 
To your question about group size for the tetra, I would say no fewer than six, but more will be better as the aggressive nature (though mild, but this can heighten) should be less risky with 8 or more.
 
Aquarists have long known that shoaling fish need groups, but until the last couple of years there was no actual scientific evidence regarding the ramifications.  But a study carried out a couple of years back with angelfish, a couple of tetra species, and another species I can't remember offhand, looked at the effects of too few in the group.  The findings were significant.  In fish that are naturally aggressive to some degree, such as angelfish, having fewer than five increased the level of aggression significantly within the group.  In fish such as the peaceful black neon tetra, having fewer than five caused aggression, and the fish really changed.  The study concluded that these fish naturally expect to be in a group, and when this is not provided it causes severe stress, and for a fish, there is really only two ways to deal with frustration and stress, and that is to either fight it or accept it; the increased aggression is the fish's way of fighting, whereas accepting the stress weakens the fish's resolve and it simply gives up and wastes away, sort of a withdrawal.  It is also known that tank space for a species can bring on the exact same responses.
 
Byron.

 

[chadschuster0321]

Now bear in mind I have never kept angels, but I have read extensively.
 
AIUI, angels aren't fully shoaling in the way that characins are. Where you get a group of 5 or 6, you may find that a male and a female will pair off and mate, and at this point the other angels should be removed, for their own safety. However, you can't just lump a male and a female together, and hope for the best, they have to be allowed to choose their own mates. Now, it might be that if you have a group of 5 or 6 angels, there might not be a compatible pair that want to mate, so you might not have a problem. But equally, it's very common to find that you do get a pair.
 
On this forum, we have on many occasions recommended a single angel.
 
A group of 4 probably wouldn't work, as a group of them needs to be large enough, which is why Byron said 5. If you only had 4 of them, they would again be stressed.

 

I agree.  My last post was necessarily lengthy to hopefully respond as you (chad) asked.  You can keep a sole angelfish, though it is not something I would recommend.  This fish lives in small (compared to other fish like characins) groups, and they naturally establish hierarchies.  I personally prefer keeping fish as nature intended them to be, and not force them into completely un-natural situations when this is not for some specific reason absolutely necessary--see the Loiselle citation in green in my signature.  So angelfish should preferably be maintained in groups of five or more, in suitably spacious tanks.  When there are fewer, it is much more likely that the hierarchy will result in one or more fish being picked on, leading to severe stress, ill health, and always early death.  A group of five or more is more likely to avoid this.
 
However, here we get to the second issue that lockman raised, and that is the pairing off.  Assuming there are males and females within the group (and discerning this in young fish is next to impossible) one or perhaps more pairs will form.  When one does, this can be havoc for the tank and the remaining angelfish.  Most aquarists will suggest moving either the pair to their own quarters, or removing the other angelfish.
 
To your question about group size for the tetra, I would say no fewer than six, but more will be better as the aggressive nature (though mild, but this can heighten) should be less risky with 8 or more.
 
Aquarists have long known that shoaling fish need groups, but until the last couple of years there was no actual scientific evidence regarding the ramifications.  But a study carried out a couple of years back with angelfish, a couple of tetra species, and another species I can't remember offhand, looked at the effects of too few in the group.  The findings were significant.  In fish that are naturally aggressive to some degree, such as angelfish, having fewer than five increased the level of aggression significantly within the group.  In fish such as the peaceful black neon tetra, having fewer than five caused aggression, and the fish really changed.  The study concluded that these fish naturally expect to be in a group, and when this is not provided it causes severe stress, and for a fish, there is really only two ways to deal with frustration and stress, and that is to either fight it or accept it; the increased aggression is the fish's way of fighting, whereas accepting the stress weakens the fish's resolve and it simply gives up and wastes away, sort of a withdrawal.  It is also known that tank space for a species can bring on the exact same responses.
 
Byron.

 
Okay thanks so much for your guys' help, once I clear up the Ick I'm going to get some more tetras and eventually get a group of angels.
 
Thanks again.