Lowering Ph

[Alexp08]

Well im doing so tank moves and fish moves. I need to lower the ph in my tank by about .8 (give or take). My tap water runs at 7.6-7.8 I would like to see it near 7.0.
Ive heard of
Peat moss
Driftwood
Certain substrate
Chemical
Co2

Now I dont want to do co2, I have the chemicals but dont like to use them. Andni really dont want to change the substrate.
So how much does driftwood and pear lower ph? Ive heard that peat and driftwood make the water yellow...I dont want this, so if I presoak/pre wash, will it still have an effect?
Are there any other ways to lower ph?
Thanks

 

[TwoTankAmin]

Lowering pH in a stable fashion is neither cheap nor easy. The staining in wood and peat is what lowers the pH and the hardness.But doing so in a stable way with things is not so easy, The first issue is when you do a water change. The water going in needs to be matched to the water already there and neither are your tap water.
 
Next,  you will go broke trying to test your water using test kits, so you will really be better off using a digital meter.
 
Finally, lowering pH requires lower KH since that is what holds pH up. The best way to deal with all this it by using RO or RO?DI water mixed with your tap.
 
Instead of going any further I will send you to a simple explanation of what all is involved http/fins.actwin.com/mirror/begin-chem.html
 
My tap is about 7.1 with TDS about 83 ppm and I have a tank which I target to be at 6.0 and low 60s ppm.  It takes me about 30 minutes to prepare the water using ro/di, tap and muratic acid. To help hold things there I use a number of items that do stain the water- a bit of peat and some alder cones in a filter, indian almond leaves that get changed every 2 weeks, Kent Black Water Expert and rooibos tea (thus helps stain and add beneficial things to the water but it doesn't help with pH or TDS. My digital monitor cost me about $250 with cleaning and calibrating solutions. https/www.getbluelab.com/products/type/monitors/guardian-monitor.aspx

 

[Byron]

I concur completely.  One thing I will add, if I may, and that is that sometimes the tank will stabilize and water changes may not need to be so fussy, depending upon the tap water parameters (GH and KH).  As an example, my tap pH is 7.0 to 7.2 but with near-zero GH and KH.  Once the tanks are established, and I have six at present, the pH lowers naturally, and is somewhat different in each tank as a result of fish load, additives for plants and organics.  Some of my tanks drop to 5 and likely even lower (can't measure below 5 pH), others stay in the low 6's.  Doing a 50% water change every week, the pH rises no more than 0.1 or 0.2 at the change, but within an hour is back where it stays.
 
TwoTank, I'd be interested in your experience on this aspect.  Hoping we are not hijacking the thread, but it is directly related to the initial question.
 
[The linked article was one I used when writing something on this a while back, it is published online on another forum so I won't link it.]
 
Byron.

 

[Yeved]

I use a RO filter. Bought it from Amazon for 50 bucks. My tap water is very hard/ high PH in the high 8's the RO filter brings it down to about 6. I believe the drift wood can lower ph but I don't believe it is a good method to consistently bring your ph down.

 

[Alexp08]

Okay I think whats best for me is to stick with fish that like 7.6 ph. Anyone know of a list or where I can find what fish are best?

 

[Byron]

Okay I think whats best for me is to stick with fish that like 7.6 ph. Anyone know of a list or where I can find what fish are best?

My first question would be, which fish were you thinking of when you considered how to lower the pH?  A difference of 0.8 is pretty negligible when it is steady and permanent.
 
Second question is, what is the GH of your tap water?  This has more impact on fish physiology than pH, much more, so it is the parameter one should be more concerned with.
 
As for fish suitable to whatever GH/pH, we can help you with that once we know the GH.
 
Byron.

 

[TwoTankAmin]

It is almost always better to keep fish which work in ones water than trying to change the parameters, especially when that means dropping them.  Raising the hardnEss, KH and pH are much easier to do and to maintain when the direction of change is up.
 
I changed my parameters for Altum angels. It took me close to 10 year of keeping fish and wanting altums before i felti could pull it off. It is not so easy and took a few tries. I did learn one interesting thing. Ask the average fish keeper what they think of dropping the pH in a tank by a full 1.0 in less than 5 minutes.
 
I can tell you with these acid water fish it works just fine with 0 ill effects. I watched an importer breeder do it when I picked up some altums and I have since done it a number of times in my tanks. I have a couple of H. contradens in with the angels and they tolerate the drops equally well.
 
But trust me when I tell you that what I do for these fish is a real PITA. When I was having health related issues in the past year and was unable to pay proper attention to my tanks, I lost a lot of my altums while the other fish and tanks managed to weather the change from weekly to every 3 week water changes and maint. I used to have 19, now I have 4.
 
Alex- as for what fish you can keep at 7.6, the list is pretty huge. A better idea might be for you to tell us what fish appeal to you and the folks can let you know if they are OK in your params.

 

[Alexp08]

Using quick dip strips, my hardness was 70 and my kh was 60
Edit hardness was 75

 

[Byron]

Using quick dip strips, my hardness was 70 and my kh was 60

Two things now, from this information.  First, the KH at 60 (must be ppm) is quite low, so that will allow the pH to lower biologically.  Second, the GH at 70 (also must be ppm) is soft/very soft, equating to 4 dGH.  This is actually ideal for plants and soft water fish, couldn't get much better.  You've almost an open field, just stay with soft water fish.  Avoid livebearers and similar moderately hard water species (rainbows come to mind, and there are a few others).
 
Byron. 

 

[Alexp08]

When you say livebearers does that pretty much take out endlers and fancy guppies?

 

[Byron]

When you say livebearers does that pretty much take out endlers and fancy guppies?

Yes.  While guppies are so "disarranged" after all the years of inbreeding they may manage better in soft water, at least according to some, Endlers cannot.
 
The Endler is endemic to the Campoma and Buena Vista coastal lagoons in northeast Venezuela.  The source for the type specimens that were discovered by Franklin Bond in 1937 is a warm freshwater lake with hard, alkaline water situated on the Paria Peninsula.  Sadly, due to pollution from garbage dumped in this lake, the fish is now believed to be extinct in this lake.  Some sources assume John Endler discovered this fish in 1975, but as mentioned this is incorrect.  Dr. Endler did mention a second site, but subsequently was unable to find it.  It was not until 2005 that the Endler gained distinct species status by Poeser, Kempkes & Isbrucker.  They proposed re-validating the genus name Acanthophacelus as a subgenus of Poecilia which contains the guppy and molly species, and Schories et al. (2009) determined that the Endler, P. wingei, is unequivocally defined by molecular phylogeny as a valid species.  A third "guppy" species, from Trinidad, was described in this same work.  The three guppy species have been placed in the subgenus that is considered generically different from all other taxa in the Poeciliinae subfamily.
 
BTW, to clarify my former post, I should not have mentioned "rainbows" in so general a fashion.  While some species such as the common Boeseman's Rainbow do require moderately hard and slightly basic water (many sources report this species does not do well long-term in soft acidic water) there are other species such as the Threadfin that would be fine in such water.  I am grateful to stanleo who PM'd me about this.  I have to be careful about generalities in contexts.
 
Byron.

 

[Alexp08]

Thanks. I have alot of changing up to do. Since the parameters given yo you were from a quick dip, im going to go to the LFS amd have them test my tap amd get a more accurate reading

 

[Byron]

Thanks. I have alot of changing up to do. Since the parameters given yo you were from a quick dip, im going to go to the LFS amd have them test my tap amd get a more accurate reading

Good idea.  And, insist they give you the test numbers, not some generality as some stores do.  What "soft" means to them may be "hard" to us, but the number is absolute be it ppm or dGH.

 

[Alexp08]

Will do.

 

[Alexp08]

Ph was 7.2, gh was about 1..and kh was also extremely low, he didnt give me a number but he said my water has almost no hardness