Low Ph?

[Bill1976]

I'm just over 4 weeks into cycling my 2 tanks, my tap water is 7ph, both tanks are reading 6 or below, from what I have just read, this is not good,

Tank one has:

Java fern
Bog wood
Moss balls

And I plan on adding more wood and having a go at aquascaping it, so will the wood not just lower the ph even more? I also intend to use some rocks I have found and prepared, am I right in thinking this will raise the ph?

Tank two has:

Java fern
Moss balls
Java moss

I am a little confused now as to what to do, is there any ways of raising the ph?

Thanks

 

[Byron]

The pH is directly connected to the GH (general hardness) and KH (carbonate hardness or Alkalinity).  The latter serves to buffer the pH, depending upon the levels for all of these, so attempts (if any) to change pH must first deal with the GH and KH, or at any rate you need to know these numbers.
 
The GH and KH you should be able to ascertain from your municipal water authority; they likely have a website, and water data is usually posted there.  The GH and KH tend to remain fairly stable in aquaria so unless you directly target the hardness, it will not usually fluctuate much from the source water.
 
When we know the GH and KH values, we will have a better idea as to the reason for the lowering pH.  There is however another common reason; some areas with very soft water (which will usually have an acidic pH) add substances such as soda ash (sodium carbonate) to raise the pH, as this reduces corrosion causedd by low pH in water lines.  This dissipates out of the water fairly readily.  However, let's get the GH/KH numbers before speculating.
 
The pH naturally tends to lower in the aquarium, due to the organics and CO2 which forms carbonic acid.  This is not necessarily bad--some fish prefer this--and the level to which this occurs is primarily due to the GH and especially KH.  Adding organic items such as wood, leaves, peat, etc will thus tend to acidify the water, lowering the pH.  In reverse, using calcareous rock/sand/gravel will dissolve primarily calcium and magnesium into the water, raising the GH/KH/pH.  But again all this may be buffered by the GH/KH.  
 
The other issue of course is the intended fish species.  Some are soft water, and will thrive under such conditions.  Others require moderately hard or harder water, with a corresponding higher pH on the basic side (above 7.0).  But before we consider fish, let's sort out the GH/KH/pH relationship.  It is much safer and easier to select fish suited to the source water than going down the sometimes tricky road of water parameter adjustment.
 
Byron. 

 

[Bill1976]

Hi thanks for the reply, a bit mind boggling for me lol, I have been onto the United utilities website and put in my post code, the results are on a table in the link below ( sorry I couldn't link the page straight up off my phone).

Its all a bit beyond me tbh, it does say the water in my area is very soft, and gives out some information about other water parameters, but I can't figure out how to get my gh/kh?

I see there are kits available from api, would it be worth investing in one of these to find out the information?



http/www.unitedutilities.com/waterquality.aspx?postcode=BB1+9Ex

 

[Byron]

Hi thanks for the reply, a bit mind boggling for me lol, I have been onto the United utilities website and put in my post code, the results are on a table in the link below ( sorry I couldn't link the page straight up off my phone).

Its all a bit beyond me tbh, it does say the water in my area is very soft, and gives out some information about other water parameters, but I can't figure out how to get my gh/kh?

I see there are kits available from api, would it be worth investing in one of these to find out the information?



http/www.unitedutilities.com/waterquality.aspx?postcode=BB1+9Ex

 
I need to enter your postal code to see the water report on this page:
http/www.unitedutilities.com/waterquality.aspx
 
I will do this if you give me the postal code, or you can enter it and copy the report.

 

[Bill1976]

I've tried that one, just says there are no water quality information available,post codes Bb1 9Ex, cheers

 

[Byron]

I've tried that one, just says there are no water quality information available,post codes Bb1 9Ex, cheers

 
I got it to work.  I entered this exactly (no spaces):  Bb19EX
 
The range for total hardness is 10 mg/l to 25 mg/l with 18 mg/l average.  The mg/l is the same as ppm (parts per million) that is a common unit used in the hobby.  We also frequently use dGH, and the average here would be 1 dGH.  The "summary" chart gives the total hardness as 3.15 Clarke (Clarke is a UK measuring unit for water hardness) and this calculates to roughly 18 mg/l.  So we seem to be on the same page whichever; result is you have very soft water.
 
The KH/Alkalinity is not given anywhere that I can find, but with the GH this low I would expect the KH to be similar.  The KH as I explained previously is a "buffer" for pH, preventing fluctuations.  With a very low KH, the pH will be free to fluctuate according to biological processes.  It will therefore tend to lower in the aquarium as I will explain.
 
Fish produce waste and this is organic.  It enters the substrate where bacteria break it down, releasing ammonia and CO2.  The fish, plants and bacteria also respire, producing CO2, though not as much as occurs in the substrate.  All this CO2 produces carbonic acid, and this acidifies the water and the pH lowers (= becomes more acidic over time).  There is nothing wrong in this, but there is a danger that it can get out of control, and if the pH lowers too far it can seriously affect fish.  However, this is where the aquarist can help.  
 
Regular partial water changes work to maintain a higher pH and more stable conditions.  But there is more we can do.  Obviously, the more fish, or the larger the fish, the more waste and thus more organics will result.  Also, the more you feed the fish, the more organics.  As a simple example, if the fish are only fed every other day, in a given week you would have 1/2 the level of organics compared to feeding them every day.  I am not suggesting alternate day feedings, just using this as an example.  The point is, be careful not to overfeed.  A balanced fish stocking for the water volume, not overfeeding, having compatible fish (fish under stress detrimentally affect the biology), live plants, and doing a weekly partial water change of no less than 1/3 the tank volume but preferably 50-60% will all keep things fairly well balanced and stable.
 
Soft water means fish species that prefer this.  I mentioned forgetting harder water fish like livebearers, etc previously.  The SA and SE Asian species generally will be right at home.  You should not need to do any water parameter fiddling,  Water chemistry is very complicated--not meaning from our understanding of it, but from the many biological and chemical processes that occur naturally in every aquarium once you add fish.  Letting these natural processes operate on their own with no intervention is always safer and easier; as soon as you start trying to adjust one aspect, the entire relationships will be impacted.  Provided the fish species are suited to the water, you should not have problems.
 
Feel free to ask whatever.
 
Byron.

 

[Bill1976]

I've tried that one, just says there are no water quality information available,post codes Bb1 9Ex, cheers

 
I got it to work.  I entered this exactly (no spaces):  Bb19EX
 
The range for total hardness is 10 mg/l to 25 mg/l with 18 mg/l average.  The mg/l is the same as ppm (parts per million) that is a common unit used in the hobby.  We also frequently use dGH, and the average here would be 1 dGH.  The "summary" chart gives the total hardness as 3.15 Clarke (Clarke is a UK measuring unit for water hardness) and this calculates to roughly 18 mg/l.  So we seem to be on the same page whichever; result is you have very soft water.
 
The KH/Alkalinity is not given anywhere that I can find, but with the GH this low I would expect the KH to be similar.  The KH as I explained previously is a "buffer" for pH, preventing fluctuations.  With a very low KH, the pH will be free to fluctuate according to biological processes.  It will therefore tend to lower in the aquarium as I will explain.
 
Fish produce waste and this is organic.  It enters the substrate where bacteria break it down, releasing ammonia and CO2.  The fish, plants and bacteria also respire, producing CO2, though not as much as occurs in the substrate.  All this CO2 produces carbonic acid, and this acidifies the water and the pH lowers (= becomes more acidic over time).  There is nothing wrong in this, but there is a danger that it can get out of control, and if the pH lowers too far it can seriously affect fish.  However, this is where the aquarist can help.  
 
Regular partial water changes work to maintain a higher pH and more stable conditions.  But there is more we can do.  Obviously, the more fish, or the larger the fish, the more waste and thus more organics will result.  Also, the more you feed the fish, the more organics.  As a simple example, if the fish are only fed every other day, in a given week you would have 1/2 the level of organics compared to feeding them every day.  I am not suggesting alternate day feedings, just using this as an example.  The point is, be careful not to overfeed.  A balanced fish stocking for the water volume, not overfeeding, having compatible fish (fish under stress detrimentally affect the biology), live plants, and doing a weekly partial water change of no less than 1/3 the tank volume but preferably 50-60% will all keep things fairly well balanced and stable.
 
Soft water means fish species that prefer this.  I mentioned forgetting harder water fish like livebearers, etc previously.  The SA and SE Asian species generally will be right at home.  You should not need to do any water parameter fiddling,  Water chemistry is very complicated--not meaning from our understanding of it, but from the many biological and chemical processes that occur naturally in every aquarium once you add fish.  Letting these natural processes operate on their own with no intervention is always safer and easier; as soon as you start trying to adjust one aspect, the entire relationships will be impacted.  Provided the fish species are suited to the water, you should not have problems.
 
Feel free to ask whatever.
 
Byron.

First off, thank you very much for taking the time to help me here, I was beginning to get a bit worried about the low ph and not being able to find the relevant information from the water company, I did put a space in the post code, you have certainly managed to simplify what looks very complicated to me at least, ( and put it in English for me ).

I am planning on having the tank fairly well planted, and also fish from south east Asia so that's worked out well.

Will I still be able to add my pieces of wood to the tank, as that's the look I would love to go down, and try my hand at aqua scalping around the wood, but I presume this will lower the ph even more?

I have been reading about adding crushed coral to increase the ph ( before your reply ) is this something to consider if I was to add the wood, to bring it back up again? ( or is this what you ment by not messing with the water parameters? )

Cheers

 

[Byron]

 First off, thank you very much for taking the time to help me here, I was beginning to get a bit worried about the low ph and not being able to find the relevant information from the water company, I did put a space in the post code, you have certainly managed to simplify what looks very complicated to me at least, ( and put it in English for me ).
 

You are very welcome.  Never hesitate to ask, there are many members here with knowledge and ready to assist.
 

I am planning on having the tank fairly well planted, and also fish from south east Asia so that's worked out well.
 

 
As you move forward, we can discuss plants, fish species and issues.  I like geographic aquaria, meaning an aquarium where all fish and plants occur in the same region, and the aquascape mimics the habitat.  This is one way to achieve a successful community tank as the fish and plants share the same requirements.
 

Will I still be able to add my pieces of wood to the tank, as that's the look I would love to go down, and try my hand at aqua scalping around the wood, but I presume this will lower the ph even more?
 

 
I wouldn't worry about this.  Wood being organic will tend to contribute to lowering the pH, but it is not that much.  And as wood is found in almost all soft water habitats, it is frankly a mandatory part of the aquascape.
 
 

 have been reading about adding crushed coral to increase the ph ( before your reply ) is this something to consider if I was to add the wood, to bring it back up again? ( or is this what you ment by not messing with the water parameters? )

 
I have done buffering more than once over the last 20 years, with varying benefits.  I tend not to do this.  I should say here that I have even softer water than you; mine out of the tap is around 7 ppm, or 0.5 dGH.  I add nothing to raise this.  I have lots of wood, and in some tanks dry leaves.  The pH remains in the low 6's in some tanks, and is at or likely below 5 in others.  I have all soft water fish, most of them wild caught species.  I am not aware of any problems arising from the lack of buffering.
 
One does have to be careful, not to create a situation where a sudden pH crash may occur.  Stability, and the fish species, are key.  If you do buffer, crushed coral is not the way to go.  First, this can send the pH soaring very quickly, but it does nothing to actually buffer because it does not impact (raise) the GH and KH much if at all, and this is what must be achieved if one is going to buffer safely.  I have used dolomite and aragonite with some degree of success, but even these left much to be desired.
 
What I do always suggest to others is to get the aquarium aquascaped, add the first few fish, and then monitor the parameters (pH here) for the first few weeks, and obviously do regular partial water changes that are significant.  I do 50-60% of each of my tanks once a week, without fail.  As I noted a moment ago, they vary in pH, due to the biological aspects of each individual aquarium, but they remain stable and constant.  And that is important.
 
Byron.

 

[Bill1976]

Thanks byron, advice taken on board, I've added the wood to the tank, just needs a bit of adjusting as it's not quite how I'd like it, I'll keep a check on parameters, and report back with any concerns, thanks