Look at this crappy set up petsmart is selling

[OohFeeshy]

What is so cold about my outlook? I stated that once the basic needs of the fish are met then they are there for out pleasure. That is waht you have done. You have met their basic needs and then put them in a situation that brings you pleasure. Now we may have different opinions as to where the basic needs end but neither of us have provided any proof one way or the other.

I do disagree with the word play. You are observing instinct behaviors that are being intrpreted as play.

Play may not be the word, but instinct can hardly act in a too small a tank, can it? Play as we know it provides mental stimulation, which every animal needs, whether it be a cat, human, dog, bird or betta. P;ay may not be the right word, but its near enough . Also, there is a lot of difference between basic needs and proper care. A baby, for instance. Providing basic care IMO is feeding it and changing its nappy. The equivalent of feeding a betta and changing the water. However, nothing thrives on basic care alone.

 

[SRC]

Well I dunno...but the guys I had in 1 gallon tanks blew bubble nests and acted just like they are now in the larger tanks (which I only bought because they looked much neater lined up in my office, on my desk, then the aquaviews..since they are such an odd shape). They swam around, flared, explored, blew bubble nests, ect .

I still think this all boils down to the owner's personal preference, with fish "preference" being a minor additive to the equation. Where if the owner thinks the animal is happier then the animal must actually be happier. It's only human to think this way.

I don't know any of you that have been to Thailand and studied the territory encompassed by a single betta fish. How do you know how big an area it should/does consist of? How do you know what they "should" be used to and/or expect? How do you know any of the things you are trying to argue/prove?

We don't, because none of us have done this. No one has tracked a single betta fish to see what kind of area is lives in its whole life. If the waters they live in aren't affected by drought at some point they could stay in an area the size, and depth, of a shoe box for all we know or they could span over a 200 mile range...but until someone actually goes and does the research..what we do here with them in our tanks..is merely based on speculation and the emotional thoughts of each individual bettas owner regarding what they consider best for their fish.

 

[OohFeeshy]

We don't, because none of us have done this. No one has tracked a single betta fish to see what kind of area is lives in its whole life. If the waters they live in aren't affected by drought at some point they could stay in an area the size, and depth, of a shoe box for all we know or they could span over a 200 mile range...but until someone actually goes and does the research..what we do here with them in our tanks..is merely based on speculation and the emotional thoughts of each individual bettas owner regarding what they consider best for their fish.

Mebbe not... But rice paddies are pretty vast places. And considering how aggressive bettas are to each other, you can assume they're going to have pretty large teritories. The water isn't very deep maybe, but thats not a bad thing. And a lot of the containers now are very tall in proportion to their length. The betta is also going to have to look for food, which is insects on the surface. They're going to have to go a fair long way for food in some months. All in all, you can easily conclude that it tisn't likely that bettas live in the equivalent of a 1/2g tank.

 

[John_Nicholson]

"I still think this all boils down to the owner's personal preference, with fish "preference" being a minor additive to the equation. Where if the owner thinks the animal is happier then the animal must actually be happier. It's only human to think this way."


I think I am in love....................

-john

 

[SRC]

lol @ John.
I just try to be a factual/analytical person as opposed to one driven by my emotion...because I am full aware of how irrational my emotions can make me at times. Although I know a vast amjority of the human race is driven by emotion, I think we'd all do better if we took the time to reign them in...things would make so much more sense to everyone if they would try this.
I'm glad I finally did, as I understand and percieve so many more things properly since I started using facts to make judgement as opposed to how I feel about the subject to make them.

Mebbe not... But rice paddies are pretty vast places. And considering how aggressive bettas are to each other, you can assume they're going to have pretty large teritories. The water isn't very deep maybe, but thats not a bad thing. And a lot of the containers now are very tall in proportion to their length. The betta is also going to have to look for food, which is insects on the surface. They're going to have to go a fair long way for food in some months. All in all, you can easily conclude that it tisn't likely that bettas live in the equivalent of a 1/2g tank.

I'd have to say with as many fish as there probably are in a rice patty..you'd probably be surprised at just how small their territories would probably be. Females may have a wider spance..since they are more tolerated...but I'd imgaine they have to keep moving and probably don't have a "set" territory like a male would.

I doubt seriously at any time do they have a hard time finding insects in Thailand...home to thousands of cases of Maleria.

Our bettas aren't wild bettas either...we honestly don't have to treat them that way. These fish we keep have NO idea of how their wild counter parts are living or that they should be living that way themselves. They are acclimated to a civilized way of living, our way of living. Us treating them like they are wild bettas is futile in the respects that it will make "them" happy. What it does is make "us" happy in the respect that we feel we are making the fish more "at home"...when in all actuality they have been at home the entire time..your home.
Thinking that they need nature replicated is just a form of human emotion tracing a path for you to follow. It follows along with the thinking that "if the owner is happy and satisified then of course the animal must be as well".

And no one is saying put them in a 1/2 gallon container. Not one person has even hinted at that. We all agree that 1 gallon is the least they should permanetly reside in...with a 2.5 being the preferred permanent home.

 

[John_Nicholson]

In one of my 120 gallon discus growout tanks I threw about 12 cull male bettas about 6 month ago. The top of the tank has a layer of water sprite that is about 2 inches thick. None of the bettas killed any of the other bettas. They did do a little fighting at first but that soon stopped. Their fins were less then perfect starting out and they sure look that way now. They have a definite pecking order. The boss swims where he wants to. The rest spend most of their time in a territory of about 4 inches. At feeding it is kind of interesting. Most of the "junior" males will eat side by side until they start getting full and then they all run each other around a minute. Then the boss swims though and they all run and hide......

-john

 

[OohFeeshy]

Our bettas aren't wild bettas either...we honestly don't have to treat them that way.

I know they're not wild I used that as a reply to the post about noone knowing much about wild betta territory. We don't have to treat them that way, true, but we can't treat them like 1g tanks are... 'natural'. I do feel some types of betta have different tank requirements than others though. Plakats, for instance, as well as young ones and females.

 

[collared_drifter]

I dont like these threads.

[snapback]927228[/snapback]​

Then don't read/reply in them.

America should have the law like in Europe, no tanks under 10 gallons should be sold.

DD

thats not true.....
i lived in germany, italy, blah blah blah... and i always saw smaller then 10 gallon tanks for sale there... and i even bought an 8 gallon once.. as well as a bunch of 2 gallons... what country are you talking about??

 

[The ultimate_fish MaC dAddY]

"I still think this all boils down to the owner's personal preference, with fish "preference" being a minor additive to the equation. Where if the owner thinks the animal is happier then the animal must actually be happier. It's only human to think this way."


I think I am in love....................

-john

Actually........no, So what your saying is that if you think a goldfish is happy in a shoe than they are happy? The fish matter in this situation too man.

 

[John_Nicholson]

Happiness is a human condition man. If the basic needs of the fish are met that is all he knows. A fish is an animal driven by instinct not logic.

-john

 

[The ultimate_fish MaC dAddY]

But you said if a person THINKS that their fish is happy than it is. And that's not true.

 

[GuppyDude]

Ouch my eyes.....
yea those suck, but beleive it or not even people who are not well educated on betta care know that a fish can not possibly live in that, its basically common sence.

 

[WILDER]

I agree, always thought that when i used to see a goldlfish in a bowl.

 

[John_Nicholson]

But you said if a person THINKS that their fish is happy than it is. And that's not true.

In that quote you put up all I had written was that I was in love with SRC. The rest of it was her thoughts not mine.

-john

P.S. Guppy Dude a betta could live its entire life in a tank smaller then 1 gallon. I am not saying that is what needs to be done. So in reality it could life a "normal" life in a tank like that

 

[wuvmybetta]

a betta could live its entire life in a tank smaller then 1 gallon. I am not saying that is what needs to be done. So in reality it could life a "normal" life in a tank like that

But is that really a "life" though,John, is it,really?

As much as I've enjoyed watching all of your brains ticking- this is one of those topics that folks just never can agree on and never will. But, if we go back to the original topic *ahem* those tiny disco bowls are ridiculous. I can hear the bettas now "aaah,aaah,aaah,I'm barely staying alive,barely staying alive "