Live Rock

hughsie

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Apparently I need some rock seeded with nitrifying bacteria which will be good for my relatively small fresh water tank. What is this and is this the same as Live Rock. The only reference that I have seen for live rock is in marine tanks. Any ideas ?

Thanks
 
Apparently I need some rock seeded with nitrifying bacteria which will be good for my relatively small fresh water tank. What is this and is this the same as Live Rock. The only reference that I have seen for live rock is in marine tanks. Any ideas ?

Thanks

Sorry but someone has been feeding you BS.
 
Live rock is only for saltwater tanks. You are just wasting money putting into a freshwater tank (It'd be expensive dead rock real quick).
 
Hello and welcome to the forum. :hi:

As you had already found, live rock is indeed saltwater. As for the bacteria, it really doesn't live on rocks although there is a minute amount of nitrifying bacteria on everything in the tank that has a water flow over it. The nitrifying bacteria colonize in/on the filter media because the water flw through the filtr brings all the ammonia and nitrite through to feed the bacteria. What you need is seed media from and established tank.
 
As for the bacteria, it really doesn't live on rocks although there is a minute amount of nitrifying bacteria on everything in the tank that has a water flow over it.

This isn't true at all....bacteria can and will grow on nearly anything so long as there is water movment past the object (bringing their food source - ammonia and nitrite - directly to them). Think about it, if that wasn't true, then there would be no such thing as an under gravel filter. So, there can and usually is a large amount of benificial bacteria in the tank and filter. Why else would live rock help in a saltwater tank? I don't even use a filter on mine and when I do, it is a very very small one on a 125 gallon tank.


The only reference that I have seen for live rock is in marine tanks. Any ideas ?


A lot of people refer to rocks that have been kept in any water as live rock...and technically it is true. Same thing with live sand.
 
Thanks all - so basically you're saying that if I have a relatively small tank then I dont need a filter. And basically if I get rocks from a established tank then they will have bacteria on them which assist in the purification process. Makes a little sense as I use to to keep goldfish in a small tank without any filter and they seemed to do ok
Thanks
 
As for the bacteria, it really doesn't live on rocks although there is a minute amount of nitrifying bacteria on everything in the tank that has a water flow over it.

This isn't true at all....bacteria can and will grow on nearly anything so long as there is water movment past the object (bringing their food source - ammonia and nitrite - directly to them). Think about it, if that wasn't true, then there would be no such thing as an under gravel filter. So, there can and usually is a large amount of benificial bacteria in the tank and filter. Why else would live rock help in a saltwater tank? I don't even use a filter on mine and when I do, it is a very very small one on a 125 gallon tank.
That is my point, the the vast majority of the nitrifying bacteria are in/on the filter. And a UGF is still a filter and houses the majority of the bacteria in the tank. The most basteria is going to be where the most food is. Since the filter has a constant flow of water/food, most of the bacteria will be there. How much water goes past a specific rock in the tank? Only a small amount. But almost all of the water passes through the filter 3 or more times per hour so there is where you will find most of your bacteria. Want to test how much bacteria is on everything else? Remove your filter for a few days and watch the ammonia spike. If it were the case that enough bacteria could live on the rocks, decor, etc. in a tank, then you would not need a filter at all in any tank but that isn't the case (unless you are talking about a Diane Walstad type planted tank). There simply isn't enough nitirfying bacteria present on the items other than the filter to handle the ammonia and nitrite in a tank.

As for the live rock in a marine tank, that is a completely different situation. I don't have any marine tanks but I do know that live rock play an important role in them. When we compare live rock in a marine tank to a rock in a FW tank, we aren't comparing apples to apples so to speak.

Thanks all - so basically you're saying that if I have a relatively small tank then I dont need a filter. And basically if I get rocks from a established tank then they will have bacteria on them which assist in the purification process. Makes a little sense as I use to to keep goldfish in a small tank without any filter and they seemed to do ok
Thanks
That is definitely not the case. Any freshwater tank needs a filter unless you want to do daily water changes to keep the ammonia down (or it's planted heavily enough that the plants use the ammonia and remove it). And it is true that there will be some nitrifying bacteria on the rock (or any other decoration) form another established tank but it will not be enough to make any appreciable difference in removing ammonia or nitrite from the water. The reason your goldfish seemed to do ok in a tank without a filter is that goldfish are extremely hardy and can live in terrible water conditions. They can live for 25+ years if properly cared for but usually only live a a few years in a small, unfiltered bowl or tank as eventually, the poor water conditions do get the best of them.
 
How much water goes past a specific rock in the tank? Only a small amount

Think about that for a minute....how is all of that water going to run through a filter if it is not moving? Your logic makes little sense to me, I am sorry.
And a UGF is still a filter and houses the majority of the bacteria in the tank.

The filter isn't holding the majority of the bacteria, it is the substrate on top of it....the filter is just dragging water through it via displacement...sort of like a siphon.


Want to test how much bacteria is on everything else? Remove your filter for a few days and watch the ammonia spike.

Don't be silly! Of course that isn't always going to happen. In a new tank, probably, in an established one, no way. People do this all of the time in a saltwater tank - including myself - and I am willing to bet I have enough water movement in my cichlid tank to do the same there as well. I am not saying that a filter is not important, but there are some very good ways of making sure that we dont have to rely on a filter as much as it seems like you are thinking. I know of at least three people with what amounts to an overstocked cichlid tank that only use a heating coil under his/her substrate as filtration. Its basically like using filter media that rarely, if ever, needs to be replaced.

If you are right, then how can the nitrogen cycle occur out of water?

When we compare live rock in a marine tank to a rock in a FW tank, we aren't comparing apples to apples so to speak

Yea it is....but maybe like comparing a red apple to a green apple. Probably the only huge difference is that we can generate a lot more water flow in a SW tank where most of the FW we keep would deal with that too well. There is just a lot more going on with live rock. For all intents and purposes, you wouldn't be completely wrong to call rock or sand in any tank "live".

Besides, the principles are so much the same that many many many people keep saltwater tanks that don't have an ounce of live rock and look exactly like a freshwater tank (hence the reason to make a comparison between fish-only and FOWLR)

I definitely agree with you about everything else though....it is best to have a filter on an aquarium, but I would add that placing something that might be carrying benificial bacteria from an established tank is at least going to give you a start and if you can get enough of it, you might be able to just clone your tank from the established one and skip a large cycling process (keyword: might).
 

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