Lighting For Basic ,ow Tech Plants

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We have had this discussion before McBenthy, so i'm not going to go to far into it again, thanks for highlighting the previous thread. I'm not a scientist, but have a good grounding on plants (aquatic ones, which are a lot different to the terrestrial plants), the guys in the Barr report link are all mainly botanic scientist or aquatic plant specialists. I have also used nearly every K rating possible to grow these plants and i have had the same result for K ratings from 2600 - 2x 1000k available.

I will maintain that the K rating and aquatic plants have no baring into how well the plant will grow. The Par levels will...aquatic plants WILL adapt to any light thrown at them.

remember what the great Lam Gallagher once said ''Don't believe the hype!'' lol

The short and long is, lights are good, regardless of kelvin; HOWEVER a bulb with a spectrum closer to the adsorption spectrum of your plants will deliver better results - not by a lot perhaps, so go with the most aestetically pleasing.

^^^this statement is almost agreeable, but i can probably bet my liver on it that these were not practiced on aquatic plants, but there different terrestrial friends.

The point is that K values denote the spectrum, PAR values are the amount of energy per unit area of light that has a wavelength that chlorophyll can use.

As for practiced on aquatic plants, they may differ a lot, but they still use the same basic metal centre for photosynthesis, even if the chlorophyll 'mount' is slightly different :good:
 
again, i will quote Clive from the Barr Report. Clive is a well respected aquatic biologist. Please give it a read and give you opinion. :good:

Full spectrum is irrelevant and is not even true. No bulb is full spectrum because no bulb can approximate the spectral curve of the sun.At best a so-called full spectrum bulb has energy peaks in more than one frequency and that's it. Even if it were possible to simulate the solar spectrum it wouldn't matter because very few plants in tropical rain forests have access to full spectrum lighting, especially if they are in water which attenuates many wavelengths. Possibly, open grasslands or the very top leaves in the canopy trees of the rain forest have access to full spectrum lighting. 300 feet below the canopy in a stream stained with tannic runoff aquatic plants grow fine without ever seeing full spectrum or 6500K light bulbs their entire lives. As a result plants have developed the ability to utilize whatever visible light is available in the environment.

Freshwater does not attenuate the red, green and yellow wavelengths as strongly as salt water. As a result, freshwater appears as many different colors while marine water normally appears blue or blue/green. Blue light is a higher energy radiation and so is not affected as easily by the water. This is why it penetrates. Red light is the lowest energy visible radiation so it is the first victim upon entering seawater. The zooplankton, corals and other species living at certain depths have had to adjust to the spectral quality reaching them at that depth.

Photosynthesis requires photons within the visible spectrum. Lumens are not relevant because it's a measure of how humans perceive the brightness of light. Chlorophyll and auxiliary pigments such as carotene molecules are sensitive to and eject electrons when struck by photons in the visible spectrum. Each chlorophyll type is optimized around a certain spectral band, however there are enough different pigment types to cover the entire spectrum. The plant assesses what wavelengths are available in the environment via photoreceptors and manufactures pigments to match what is available. The photon energy is then converted and passed on to the chlorophyll for electron conversion. If the spectral quality of the light changes the plant adapts and manufactures a different pigment type to match the new ambient conditions. Although Chlorophyll a and b are the dominant pigment types other pigment are always present. You can see these pigments inherent in the leaves during the Autumn when the green chlorophyll is withdrawn leaving the other pigment types behind. These pigment are responsible for the fall colors but they are not just there for our viewing pleasure. They are there to take advantage of whatever wavelength light is available during the growing period.

Therefore it does not matter what color light is used, the plants will adapt to match.

found here


http://www.barrreport.com/archive/index.php/t-4768.html

What i find interesting is aquatic plants an actinic bulbs. I have seen decent plant growth and actinic bulbs (not done by myself) and aquatic plants grow well.

Also Aqua design amano (ADA) run by plant god Takashi Amano use a bulb called the NAG green bulb, yes the bulb is in the green spectrum, and these bulbs are used on all of his tanks in his gallery in Japan. Guess what!!


this is why i totally disbelieve that the K ratings (especially 6500) of bulbs make no difference to how you can grow aquatic plants.
 
I am all for even buying new hoods for my 55. I just do not know what kinda to get . any suggestions or a link to some that I can look at online and read or get.
 
I am all for even buying new hoods for my 55. I just do not know what kinda to get . any suggestions or a link to some that I can look at online and read or get.

Hey! There may be no need to buy a new hood. I recently upgraded my tired old lighting. I have a homemade wooden hood, so all I did was buy an appropriate lighting ballast and some lights. As you are buying a new ballast, I would suggest T5 over T8. (I bought this unit http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/HAGEN-GLO-T5-HO-TWIN-LIGHT-STARTER-2-X-24W-/310398024862?_trksid=p4340.m185&_trkparms=algo%3DDLSL%252BSIC.NPJS%26its%3DI%26itu%3DUCI%252BUA%26otn%3D10%26pmod%3D390411441146%252B390411441146%26po%3D%26ps%3D63%26clkid%3D8242883577298000908 - 24W is a 2ft T5HO bulb - comes with everything you need to mount the bulbs in a hood except for screws) To know what power ballast you need, look on here. Only look at T5HO (High Output) - http://www.thelightbulbshop.co.uk/Shop/FluorescentTubes/Product/2444/FQ2482S/T5Lumilux%C2%AEHighOutput.aspx

As said, colour is mostly a personal choice. Personally, I'm loving the colour that my bulbs are atm. I would tell you what bulbs you need power wise, but I don;t know the length of your tank (I'm assuming 4ft, but best to let you decide :) )

again, i will quote Clive from the Barr Report. Clive is a well respected aquatic biologist. Please give it a read and give you opinion. :good:

Full spectrum is irrelevant and is not even true. No bulb is full spectrum because no bulb can approximate the spectral curve of the sun.At best a so-called full spectrum bulb has energy peaks in more than one frequency and that's it. Even if it were possible to simulate the solar spectrum it wouldn't matter because very few plants in tropical rain forests have access to full spectrum lighting, especially if they are in water which attenuates many wavelengths. Possibly, open grasslands or the very top leaves in the canopy trees of the rain forest have access to full spectrum lighting. 300 feet below the canopy in a stream stained with tannic runoff aquatic plants grow fine without ever seeing full spectrum or 6500K light bulbs their entire lives. As a result plants have developed the ability to utilize whatever visible light is available in the environment.

Freshwater does not attenuate the red, green and yellow wavelengths as strongly as salt water. As a result, freshwater appears as many different colors while marine water normally appears blue or blue/green. Blue light is a higher energy radiation and so is not affected as easily by the water. This is why it penetrates. Red light is the lowest energy visible radiation so it is the first victim upon entering seawater. The zooplankton, corals and other species living at certain depths have had to adjust to the spectral quality reaching them at that depth.

Photosynthesis requires photons within the visible spectrum. Lumens are not relevant because it's a measure of how humans perceive the brightness of light. Chlorophyll and auxiliary pigments such as carotene molecules are sensitive to and eject electrons when struck by photons in the visible spectrum. Each chlorophyll type is optimized around a certain spectral band, however there are enough different pigment types to cover the entire spectrum. The plant assesses what wavelengths are available in the environment via photoreceptors and manufactures pigments to match what is available. The photon energy is then converted and passed on to the chlorophyll for electron conversion. If the spectral quality of the light changes the plant adapts and manufactures a different pigment type to match the new ambient conditions. Although Chlorophyll a and b are the dominant pigment types other pigment are always present. You can see these pigments inherent in the leaves during the Autumn when the green chlorophyll is withdrawn leaving the other pigment types behind. These pigment are responsible for the fall colors but they are not just there for our viewing pleasure. They are there to take advantage of whatever wavelength light is available during the growing period.

Therefore it does not matter what color light is used, the plants will adapt to match.

found here


http://www.barrreport.com/archive/index.php/t-4768.html

What i find interesting is aquatic plants an actinic bulbs. I have seen decent plant growth and actinic bulbs (not done by myself) and aquatic plants grow well.

Also Aqua design amano (ADA) run by plant god Takashi Amano use a bulb called the NAG green bulb, yes the bulb is in the green spectrum, and these bulbs are used on all of his tanks in his gallery in Japan. Guess what!!


this is why i totally disbelieve that the K ratings (especially 6500) of bulbs make no difference to how you can grow aquatic plants.

This is very interesting. I will have to read up on the secondary pigments, my knowledge is based purely on research I was privvy to surrounding structure mapping of the active centre in chlorophyll. Some of the quote you link sounds like pseudo-science, but I doubt very much it is a complete lie and rather is an over simplification of some very complex science.

regarding actinics, they do emit radiation inside of the adsorption spectrum of chlorophyll, but I will not pretend to know anymore about them as I am having to look up their spectrum from Arcadia, which is always a bit dodge.

Whilst the bulb is marketed as NAG Green, I am highly doubtful it is purely a green bulb - again, I can find no information on it - other than it being a metal halide, so it will by nature have a very wide spectrum.

Personally, I believe that the spectrum of the bulb can and does effect plant growth, in much the same way that adding CO2 or fertilizer does (although admitably not to the same magnitude) - for instance, a plant grown on my window ledge will grow plenty well, but if I take that same plant and put it under a 'perfect' hydroponics rig, it will grow better.

However, as I will keep saying, the choice in colour is as much about personal taste as it is a question of what the plant can best utilise, you will be much better off adding another bulb (assuming light is the limiting factor) than stressing about kelvin ratings. :good:
 
Those are beautiful tanks, I have heard about Mr. Takashi Amano on another video where they go into the actual contest.

I want to do more research before I speak more on the matter mainly because my own experiences have proven some things true for me and I would like to find out why.
 
Hey Termato, yes Amano is awesome and i'm a massive fan of his, i'm entering one of my scapes in his comp this year. I won't be winning it though! lol

He is the IMO the father of aquascaping and planted tank keeping. As for research it's good to get a discussion going on the matter, these threads always come in handy when someone wants to know in the future. :good:

@ McBenthy, cheers for the reply. I know what you're saying re the pseudo science in that quote, but i'm positive it is backed up by sound research into the areas mentioned.

The NAG bulb is indeed a MH, so yes it will have a good spectrum, the NAG in real life looks great though, it does amit a green tinge which reflects the plants brilliantly, but as we say the K rating really doesn't matter as the plants grow great.


@ the OP, i'm sorry your thread has taken a slightly different route.
 
Hey Termato, yes Amano is awesome and i'm a massive fan of his, i'm entering one of my scapes in his comp this year. I won't be winning it though! lol

He is the IMO the father of aquascaping and planted tank keeping. As for research it's good to get a discussion going on the matter, these threads always come in handy when someone wants to know in the future. :good:

@ McBenthy, cheers for the reply. I know what you're saying re the pseudo science in that quote, but i'm positive it is backed up by sound research into the areas mentioned.

The NAG bulb is indeed a MH, so yes it will have a good spectrum, the NAG in real life looks great though, it does amit a green tinge which reflects the plants brilliantly, but as we say the K rating really doesn't matter as the plants grow great.


@ the OP, i'm sorry your thread has taken a slightly different route.

I agree with you. He is the man! hahaha.

I do plan on gathering some more information to discuss this issue so that I can learn some more. I always want to understand why something is happening. I just feel the need to make a very well informed statement in order to convey my idea correctly so it will take some time. I can do this later when I do not have work to do haha.
 
Hey Termato, yes Amano is awesome and i'm a massive fan of his, i'm entering one of my scapes in his comp this year. I won't be winning it though! lol

Don't sell your scapes short!! :good:

@ the OP, i'm sorry your thread has taken a slightly different route.

Hence why I answered her question first :good:

Again incase it was lost, look at buying a new lighting unit that is suitably rated for your size aquarium :lol:

I linked the unit I am currently using, as well as somewhere to buy the T5HO bulbs cheap - and I can vouch for the delivery, took 5 mins of hacking to get at them they were that well packed! :lol:

And remember, pics plz :fun:
 
Hey Termato, yes Amano is awesome and i'm a massive fan of his, i'm entering one of my scapes in his comp this year. I won't be winning it though! lol

Don't sell your scapes short!! :good:

@ the OP, i'm sorry your thread has taken a slightly different route.

Hence why I answered her question first :good:

Again incase it was lost, look at buying a new lighting unit that is suitably rated for your size aquarium :lol:

I linked the unit I am currently using, as well as somewhere to buy the T5HO bulbs cheap - and I can vouch for the delivery, took 5 mins of hacking to get at them they were that well packed! :lol:

And remember, pics plz :fun:


umm thanks you did I miss a link .
 
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thank I foundit. I kinda missed it amoung all the debating of K and what maters most LOL looks great I just can not picter howyou would mount it. I guess I hav emore researching .. I know I will get it soe day. I am one to keep on something until I get it and get it right.

Stacey, if you wouldn't mind, please can you post a picture of the set up you have for your lighting currently? I will grab a picture of how mine are mounted later :good:

EDIT: spelling
 
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thank I foundit. I kinda missed it amoung all the debating of K and what maters most LOL looks great I just can not picter howyou would mount it. I guess I hav emore researching .. I know I will get it soe day. I am one to keep on something until I get it and get it right.

Stacey, if you wouldn't mind, please can you post a picture of the set up you have for your lighting currently? I will grab a picture of how mine are mounted later :good:

EDIT: spelling


I was looking to add a picture on this reply but do not see a button to :( I can start new topic wiht pics I guess unless I am missing somehting
 
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thank I foundit. I kinda missed it amoung all the debating of K and what maters most LOL looks great I just can not picter howyou would mount it. I guess I hav emore researching .. I know I will get it soe day. I am one to keep on something until I get it and get it right.

Stacey, if you wouldn't mind, please can you post a picture of the set up you have for your lighting currently? I will grab a picture of how mine are mounted later :good:

EDIT: spelling


I was looking to add a picture on this reply but do not see a button to :(

When adding a post look where you see the B I and U for bold and stuff. Look to the right and you will see a smilie face and then this chain and then an image. Click on that image thing.

You can insert an image URL onto there to attach on the post.
 
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