Just An Update

[loraxchick]

hi
i posted a few weeks ago inquiring about how often SFF's make bubble nests (to which i only received two valid responses)... i was just wondering about the freqeuncy, if all males made them or if it depended on the individual fish's personality. I also was being fairly well criticized about my current tank set up...i have two males, thing1 and thing2, in a divided 6gal which is heavily planted with diy co2 and 3 wpg lighting. i cycled the tank with fish in , (which i normally would not do, but the condition i received the fish in needed to be remedied immediately- they were in TINY little vases and i wanted them to have a happier home. y'all know, the sort where the fish could actually swim around). i dont want to start a battle over methods here but i just want to make those of you aware who were being very critical of me (for not having a conventional filter) that all of my readings, including nitrate, is at 0. This (and i know lots of you will not like this) is after performing 0 water changes in two weeks. (dont worry i tested everyday religiously just in case i needed to drop my nitrates).
As i was saying in previous posts, i have kept healthy aquariums for years. i am a noob to SFF's, but not fishkeeping. the bacteria are established through seeding from a mature tank with two inches of medium gravel. The bioload in my tank is small enough where my plants take care of the "waste" from the fish. i would never suggest someone brand new to fish keeping try this method but i do want to make some people aware that it is possible to have a closed system in a tank without conventional filtration. the boys are very happy in their planted tanks and spend endless hours watching snails, it's their favorite past time. The boys also never got sick, even after their unintentional fight when the divider was improperly installed (my fault)
try not to be so critical. I understand the purpose of these forums is to give lots of info and to help when the situation arises (as did when the boys got into their tiff...thanks to those who came to the rescue!) Please realize that there are "unconventional methods" that some here may not be aware of and that, if done properly and diligently, will not harm the fish. That is the LAST thing i would want to do. I love my fish!
My way is not for everyone. It is a big risk for the fish if not done correctly and a watchful eye is not present. Do lots of planning and research before trying any sort of closed environment. Noobs, dont try this at home!

 

[5teady_2012]

whats wrong with keeping 2 males in a divided tank? i did that in mine (7gallon).

 

[loraxchick]

whats wrong with keeping 2 males in a divided tank? i did that in mine (7gallon).

it wasnt the two males together, it was that i had no filtration and cycled with the fish in (desperate times call for desperate measures). And my ammonia level was a wee high but it was right at that threshold before nitrates show up, no signs of fishy stress, so i thought id give it a boost. well i basically was told that i HAVE to have a filter, im killing my fish, bacteria do not live in the substrate, plants will never ever work as well as a filter, etc.
I just wanted to post and share some info that with a tank that is heavily planted with fast (key is FAST) growing plants, plenty of lighting, co2, dosing nutrients, with a small bioload can work as a nice productive balanced ecosystem. i was a little worried about the snails that hitched a ride on the plants, i now have roughly 279842 of them, and the waste they were producing would cause my system to crash, but it is a.OK as the population is limited on available food as ive observed. they keep my plants and glass clean at least and give the boys something to do other than stare at each other all day. and they have not caused my gh to vary (not taking in carbonates too fast for shell growth).
As for the fish, the red fish (thing1) is your run of the mill VT (with really awesome irredecent blue banding) and my VT blue fish (thing2) is sooooo beautiful (i cant wait for his fin damage to grow back fully-he was gorgeous when i got him)...has red splashes and silvery metallic blue tint to his fins. ive never seen that in a betta before. purply/blue/gray shiny fins. i have to post some pic. have been waiting to thin the plants as they are growing like weeds (which they pretty much are in the plant world). i just wish i knew someone who could use the plants 'cause they are very healthy and are just going to be clipped and thrown into my turtle tank to help suck up the nitrites (a never ending battle with messy messy turltes). but i digress.
I have said that these are my first bettas. and MAN do i have the bug. when my turtle gets upraded to a larger tank (she's a wee baby but growing like mad) i will take over her 10 gal and perhaps get a nice sorority tank going. It would be fun to have lots and lots and lots of them. I can see how one could go betta crazy! i just adore mine

 

[5teady_2012]

If you did daily waterchanges of 90%-100% up until the filters matured wouldnt that have been ok?

 

[LauraFrog]

I keep bettas without filters. I don't have the power supply in my room to cover as many betta jars as I have. They are all fine provided I change the water daily. Some of my bettas hate filters anyway and will not come out even to eat if there is any water movement at all. Even a bubbler was too much for them. I dont' see the problem with these 'unconventional methods' if the water quality is good and the fish are kept properly.

 

[ibbledibble]

If you did daily waterchanges of 90%-100% up until the filters matured wouldnt that have been ok?

I keep bettas without filters. I don't have the power supply in my room to cover as many betta jars as I have. They are all fine provided I change the water daily. Some of my bettas hate filters anyway and will not come out even to eat if there is any water movement at all. Even a bubbler was too much for them. I dont' see the problem with these 'unconventional methods' if the water quality is good and the fish are kept properly.

I think that what most people really objected to was the high levels of ammonia and nitrite she was deliberately subjecting her fish to (despite testing every day) in order to cycle her tank more quickly. i have kept bettas in unfiltered tanks myself (especially when dealing with separating fry) but i really believe that while cycling, regular water changes should be carried out.

i have had the SFF's in their tank for over a month and only have done 2 wc's...and that was fairly early on,

the levels are cycling right now...NH4~ 1 steadily, NO2~ 1 and rising, NH3 0 thus far..waiting to see the crash in NH4/NH2...

i wanted "high" amonia at the first sign of nitrites which ACCELERATES the growth of the secondary beacteria to convert to NITRATES...

 

[loraxchick]

If you did daily waterchanges of 90%-100% up until the filters matured wouldnt that have been ok?

i didnt have to. when i had gotten the boys i did so much research into betta the first couple of days, that they are messy fish and that needs for space etc., so i rushed out and got them a larger habitat so-to-speak, a 6 gal.
Got lots of plants, good lighting, and DIY co2 immediately to help combat the waste (i have a turtle as ive said and it is a never ending battle with nitrates. i have a Fluval 305 which keeps her water , all 4 gallons of it, water crystal clear, nitrasorb which i recharge. along with 3xwk 75%wc and still cant keep nitrates under 40ppm)..knowing about clean water from research, i 0 ammonia and .5 nitrites with quick conversion to nitrates. wanted to get plants established to take up ammonia while it was cycling. and they did a great job. Held it 5teady around .25ppm and would randomly jump around from .5 back to almost nothing in around 36 hours. so i wasnt ever worried about my fish. Once it got to around .75 i freaked and threw in some gravel from my established turtle tank and ammonia fell basically overnight, hovering around .25....rest of the cycle was quick. only five days (i keep a log to figure out when things go wrong what i DID wrong). But i noticed the fish werent bubble nesting like they did in their tiny, old, crappy vases, so i asked on here and people got mad at me for cycling improperly, no filtration (even after i said i have lots of plants), etc. but the tank and all inhabitatnts are fairing marvelously. all lvels, including nitrate are at 0

 

[loraxchick]

and as i posted im not trying to begin arguments now. just want to let yall know that everything is spiffy in there. fish and plants alike doing super! maybe pus some minds at ease. im not trying to make anyone upset as if i do need help on any issue this would absolutely be the first place id come to. there are lots of very knowledgible betta people here. would not be wise to make enemies so please let the whole "cycling" thing go. its been cycled for weeks and absolutely 0 nitrates anymore thanks to my weeds in the tank (they sure grow like weeds!) Maybe us plants as a suggestion for those who have constant nitrate problems (or even algae- never had a problem with that either as the plants use up the available nutrients first). given adequit lighting and a very cheap and easy DIY co2 system, the plants will do wonders in any tank given the proper circumstances.

 

[Honeythorn]

What do you actually have against filters? You can make one out of a fish food pot and a few other bits and pieces, if conventional ones are too strong. It also causes little to no surface agitation which some bettas dislike.

If it's working then good for you. But your posts come across as being rather " I'm going to prove filters aren't needed look at me nyanyanya "

 

[5teady_2012]

and as i posted im not trying to begin arguments now. just want to let yall know that everything is spiffy in there. fish and plants alike doing super! maybe pus some minds at ease. im not trying to make anyone upset as if i do need help on any issue this would absolutely be the first place id come to. there are lots of very knowledgible betta people here. would not be wise to make enemies so please let the whole "cycling" thing go. its been cycled for weeks and absolutely 0 nitrates anymore thanks to my weeds in the tank (they sure grow like weeds!) Maybe us plants as a suggestion for those who have constant nitrate problems (or even algae- never had a problem with that either as the plants use up the available nutrients first). given adequit lighting and a very cheap and easy DIY co2 system, the plants will do wonders in any tank given the proper circumstances.

NITRATE isnt so much of a issue..

Its NITRITE you need to be worried about along with AMMONIA

 

[ibbledibble]

so please let the whole "cycling" thing go.

i don't mean to be rude (honestly i don't like arguments) but you were the one who brought it back up at the begining of this post by saying

(to which i only received two valid responses)... I also was being fairly well criticized about my current tank set up.. i dont want to start a battle over methods here but i just want to make those of you aware who were being very critical of me .... try not to be so critical. Please realize that there are "unconventional methods" that some here may not be aware of and that, if done properly and diligently, will not harm the fish....

all of those comments are bringing the subject back up.

you could have simply said,

hi
just wanted to let anyone who is interested in the idea of a heavily planted unfiltered tank, know that all of my readings, including nitrate, are at 0. This is after performing 0 water changes in two weeks. (dont worry i tested everyday religiously just in case i needed to drop my nitrates).
As i was saying in previous posts, i have kept healthy aquariums for years. i am a noob to SFF's, but not fishkeeping. the bacteria are established through seeding from a mature tank with two inches of medium gravel. The bioload in my tank is small enough where my plants take care of the "waste" from the fish. i would never suggest someone brand new to fish keeping try this method but i do want to make some people aware that it is possible to have a closed system in a tank without conventional filtration. the boys are very happy in their planted tanks and spend endless hours watching snails, it's their favorite past time. The boys also never got sick, even after their unintentional fight when the divider was improperly installed (my fault)

My way is not for everyone. It is a big risk for the fish if not done correctly and a watchful eye is not present. Do lots of planning and research before trying any sort of closed environment. Noobs, dont try this at home!

your initial post (and several of your previous ones) comes across as quite aggressive (in my opinion) i think if you stop bringing it up, everyone else will drop it too, but when you are criticizing others for being critical, those others are bound to want to defend their actions.

as i posted on your previous thread i am very glad your tank is now sorted out (and i don't necessarily see any problem with not doing water changes when you have zero levels), in fact i do think that the planted tank method is very interesting, i had read up on it a little previously and i would love to try it myself at some point.

 

[loraxchick]

"as i posted on your previous thread i am very glad your tank is now sorted out (and i don't necessarily see any problem with not doing water changes when you have zero levels), in fact i do think that the planted tank method is very interesting, i had read up on it a little previously and i would love to try it myself at some point."
[/quote]

Ibble, you should definately go planted. maintainence with proper care for your plants is minimal. Plants are a natural filter (along with the bacteria housed within the aquarium set up). They are defiantedly worth the investment in equip., etc, but you will be amazed at how much of a breeze maintainence is (if of course, like myself, it wasnt cycled beforehand, even still the plants do wonders!). and th efish seem to like them too! a win win.

 

[azulfire24]

yea they do seem to like the live plants more then fake.

 

[Syphoniera]

"as i posted on your previous thread i am very glad your tank is now sorted out (and i don't necessarily see any problem with not doing water changes when you have zero levels), in fact i do think that the planted tank method is very interesting, i had read up on it a little previously and i would love to try it myself at some point."

(Note - had to knock off a quote tag - only allowed one per customer, apparently. Syphoniera)

Ibble, you should definately go planted. maintainence with proper care for your plants is minimal. Plants are a natural filter (along with the bacteria housed within the aquarium set up). They are defiantedly worth the investment in equip., etc, but you will be amazed at how much of a breeze maintainence is (if of course, like myself, it wasnt cycled beforehand, even still the plants do wonders!). and th efish seem to like them too! a win win.

Hi, loraxchick,
just wanted to second you on the planted tank as system filter thing.
I don't know exactly what method you're using, but would be interested to know; sounds like inert gravel and added ferts?
So far I have only 5 (smaller) tanks set up in/converted to the Walstad (low-maintenance, earth under gravel, planted system) method, but with 3 more to be started soonish, and eventually will redo at least a couple of the others now going.
(I've been practicing my mistakes until I can make them in my sleep, lol.)
But lots of people don't have filters in smaller Walstads and, like these - and you - I'll likely only have them in tanks of 10 gallons and over.
There are studies showing that plants preferentially uptake ammonia that I'm too lazy to dig for at 3 AM: I wanted to relieve the automatic horror felt by people hearing the words 'uncycled aquarium' 'no water changes' and 'fish' - I'd have freaked too, not so very long ago.
Any level of nitrite present is scary for keepers and stressful for fish, being so horribly toxic; it's hardly surprising if people worry.
But another thing is, as you point out, that a well-planted tank contains so much surface area for nitrifying bacteria, even though the Walstad and similar methods rely on plant uptake which shouldn't have to face too much competition from these.
And yes, fast-growing plants can suck up ammonia virtually as fast as produced, especially in a lower bioload situation.
Once it's been pointed out, you have to wonder why we place so little faith in the natural balance that we so completely and reflexively ignore whatever degree can be maintained in the glass boxes in which so much of our interest lives.
Diana Walstad puts fish in her tanks same day as set-up, no problems, as do others.
I'm chicken - it took me 6 weeks to put a 'feeder-line' Endler cross guppy (valued pet, with almost no bioload) in my first one.
The fears, thinking and habits of a life-time can be difficult to alter.
Speaking as a self-revealing pariah, my Mother's been nice enough to pick me up things at garage sales, which I always thought were rather useless, including a goldfish bowl (actually proved very useful for things like keeping cuttings alive under lights) and a tiny hex (obviously the worst design next to a goldfish bowl for fish, planting, cleaning - unless your fish swims up and down rather than sideways...) which probably only holds 2&1/2 or maybe 3 gallons tops, total.
These were actually both just pressed into emergency service, when I went to look at 'the baby betta' in an LFS and was told the tiny, ragged-finned critter was supposedly the same age as the others but of a 'smaller breed' - purportedly Imbellis.
Could have passed for a plakat/crowntail cross in my know-nothing books, although it's possible that finrot could produce serrated fins, I suppose, and the barring did look very extensive for stress-stripes, but what do I know - or care?
So my new baby, initially sadly lethargic and sleepy-eyed, (although livening up just a little bit more daily) spent several days living in this stupid (unheated) goldfish bowl being dipped out for complete water changes (stressful) while I set up a Walstad out of this infant hex, lots of suitable cuttings being luckily available as I'd needed to prune anyway.
He has a heater but no filter, and pretty irridescent green gradually coming up in contrast to the brilliant red fins; the blackish bordering seems to be disappearing.
I hope he's just runty, (seems to be missing a couple of gill-flaps and could have internal deformities as well) as it's often terrible diseases/parasites preventing growth, but as he's only potentially endangering snails and I'm careful not to cross-contaminate...
But he's so cute at that size, despite his condition - smaller than my pinky
I'd have wanted him even if he'd been perfectly healthy - I just wouldn't have had an excuse.
He'll only be getting getting water changes twice a week, due to the medication for fin-rot and ich, (relatively big, ugly white spots on one fin and his caudal - and I actually missed seeing them) but as the thick layer of gravel over the soil, the large flat-on-top rock used as a feeding/water pouring area, and the low water level up top leave not much over 2 gallons of actual water added, if not for the plants, I'd feel uncomfortable leaving him more than 2 days at this stage, despite the fact that his body's not much over an inch long and his bio-load essentially nill.
The 5 small snails I put in probably produce more waste in a day than he would in a month.
Anyone sensible would point out
1 - never buy a sick/deformed fish
2 - never buy a fish you have no suitable home prepared for
3 - never put a fish in an uncycled tank.
And a lot of other things, many doubtless unprintable, even apart from the narrow 2-gallon thing, of which I disapprove.
No offense to anyone who expects ME to show sense but boy, I love these smilies.
I think it's easy to come off sounding defensive when you're expecting to be criticized - although it's also important to recognise that concern for helpless animals perceived as potentially being placed at risk must be voiced.
Even if we can't always provide ideal situations for emergency Bettas we take on anyway, we're typically doing what we can, and those who point out concerns or problems are typically doing the same.

I would also like to generally point out (again as one who knows nothing, but while I'm on my soapbox, talking through my hat, anyway,) with reference to another comment made, that while waterchanges should (unless in heavily planted tanks) be initially conducted daily during fish-in cycling, 90-100% would defeat the purpose: ideally, nitrifying bacteria populate every surface and are present in the water.
The idea is to reduce ammonia and nitrites (as pointed out elsewhere, nitrates aren't the object of real concern) but without any present at all, bacteria which feeds on these will starve rather than propagate - in other words, the tank would be unable to ever cycle properly, while being virtually or entirely drained daily.
Depending on circumstance, and speaking (yet again) as one who knows nothing, I'd do 10 - 30% daily - and if at all possible, personally, I'd have plants: I honestly feel that, however otherwise well kept, most fish will be more healthy and comfortable with at least some live plants in their tanks, to some degree converting to new growth the perpetual waste they respire and otherwise produce, harbouring small organisms for small fish and fry to seek out, and providing a soft shelter - unlike rock/plastic plants, etc. - in which they can shelter when desiring to do so.
After all, Mother Nature has been keeping us all alive a lot longer that we've been killing her off.
And she knows what she's doing, whether the rest of us do or not.

 

[loraxchick]

What a well thought out and written reply. You definately hit the nail on the head so to speak. My set-up is exactly as you guessed- planted with gravel and dosing with ferts and DIY co2. I was unaware that these systems had a name associated with it. I just know that natural balanced can be acheived, as ive done before in other tanks. You also understood why i cycled the way i did (without perfroming massive water changes all the time. That is precisely why i couldnt! I always kept a close eye on the boys who acted and looked as normal as ever. Since putting them in the planted tank, their colors are really comming out. Not just your "red betta" and "blue betta". They are so handsome. The only problem, if you could call it that, is what to do with the plants now. They are growing so quickly that i have to prune at least once a week. And i know no one who needs plants for their tanks so i basically just throw them into my turtle tank (i cant plant them in there as she digs them up anyway- but she does eat the anacharis). Soon i will just be throwing them away though as it is getting crowded in that tank too. seems a shame to waste them as they are very healthy and produce a LOT of o2. They just grow too fast
For everyone who was concerned, i honestly do appreciate it. we all have a responsibility to any animal we own to keep them well and happy. There are so many knowlegeable folks on here it is truely impressive. This is why i read the forums all the time. And in case of any sort of emergency, this would be the absolute first place id come. so thanks to everyone for supporting such a wonderful resource.