it’s the “little things”…

[Magnum Man58 173]

with all the cover areas , aquatic plants, and terrestrial plants growing out of my tanks, it’s always been my desire to have as much of a “real” ecosystem as possible, this includes the things that break down wastes and excess food, that works it’s way down in between the rocks, and big cover items… is anyone successfully keeping the micro fauna that breaks this stuff down ( other than pest snails )???

I’ve been looking at trying to seed some tanks with these critters, and found this… anyone tryed???

Freshwater Ecosystem Starter Pack (5 Cultures)

Five cultures: phytoplankton, copepods, daphnia, microworms & ostracods. Everything to kickstart a thriving freshwater ecosystem. Free shipping.

copepodsforsale.com

I figure if, for example, I got cultures started in my hillstream tank, in which I’m actively trying to grow algae in, if I get these started, I basically turn my sterile aquarium algae into Aufwuchs, which is a more complete diet for these fish…

seems a natural in breeder tanks, but I don’t know enough about them, to know if the cultures can be maintained in a tank with that kind of consumption level??? I’m thinking in a tank with mature fish, most would survive, as they are too small to be eaten regularly by mature fish???

 

[GaryE18 16]

Nothing is too small to be eaten. Consider the size of you and I, and the tiny foods we eat. Then compare that to fish, who in many cases feed on bacteria, a good size relative to how big they are.
I add plants from nature to my tanks. I live dangerously (not really). That usually adds copepods, ostracods, microscopic worms, insect larvae and daphnia. I also culture outdoor Daphnia and uninvited small insect larvae, and feed them to my fish in complex planted tanks. It is extremely rare for any of them to go more than 3 days uneaten. Our glass boxes are traps filled with bored fish that can't go anywhere and focus on what arrives on their turf with great diligence.

 

[Magnum Man58 173]

well, for good, or bad, I have areas the fish can’t get into, weather it’s the stone piles, of 2-3 inch stones on each end of my hillstream tank, or the silver dollar tank, which has areas the chewed up roots work their way into, from the current of the filters, that the fish are too large to get into… I can believe that in my south American tetra tank, which is too full of a variety of different sized fish, that nothing would survive long in that tank, but many of my tanks end up with a lot of hiding places a small critter could get into, that would be safe from the fish in that tank, even my African tank, with the substrate being 1 inch stones, and adding all the cichlid stone caves that I recently added, there would be a lot of turf, that even the blues, couldn’t get into…

 

[Magnum Man58 173]

coincidently, this morning one of my red tailed hillstream’s was flashing his tail at me, while I was starting this thread… seemed to be signaling yes, he would like some critters in his salad…

 

[GaryE18 16]

The critters can hide in the hard to access areas, which is why some of the ones that go into the tanks survive 3 days. I once, in hundreds of times, had Daphnia establish in a killie tank. There would always be a few around from a very prolific species, and the Aphyosemion elberti ate their fill and left it at that. I got several months of that. But all of these potential foods are mobile beasts that wander out, and the fish welcome with open jaws.

Little cyclops have persisted in some tanks, seemingly not very tasty. But again, you go away for a few days and with nothing better to munch on, they're gone.

I have lots of wood, rocks and plants in the tanks where I've tried too. I hope your luck's better than mine.

 

[Helina23 1]

@Magnum Man
Hey!
Very interesting goal, which fascinates me as well. I don't know that substrate, and I haven't gone that far in my tank in reaching complete ecological cycles, but.... what I have is I think very close already.

My Neocaridina shrimps break down debris to very tiny particles. I rarely if ever see any fish poop anywhere. Ever. Only once I've seen a tiny poop particle still attached to one of my green neon tetras. I only see very tiny black dust coming from beneath the gravel while hoovering the substrate every now and then.

And while my tank is not overpopulated and I feed regularly, I do water changes pretty rarely and the water condition still remains very good... and NO2 doesn't go up much. It must be that the fish poop has, in a system like this, already broken down enough by shrimps to become plant food instead. So in a way it's a system where i add food and remove plants mainly. And that's a cycle.

In my rare maintenance, I clean glasses, reduce plant growth and vacuum the substrate where I can conveniently reach it, only. And not even very deeply. Should maybe go deeper, to oxygenize it further. Water I change about half or 1/3 if done more often. Anyway, if you are looking for a tank with no substrate hoovering at all, then you need to be prepared for piling up of that tiny dust and losing oxygen in deeper levels of the tank. Then you might need to add some wormlets to dig through it constantly to oxygenize it.

But other than that, maybe you don't need to extend it with special mixtures to achieve what you want? If it's not so extreme version? But anyway, what you are aiming for sounds interesting!

 

[WhistlingBadger53 9]

If I remember right, @jaylach (or maybe it was @Back in the fold ?) had an established scud colony going in an undergravel filter that became somewhat self-sustaining, despite fish predation. Perhaps he'll chime in here. This has long been a goal of mine, too. But I think it would require a very big, very thinly stocked tank.

 

[jaylach57 173]

If I remember right, @jaylach (or maybe it was @Back in the fold ?) had an established scud colony going in an undergravel filter that became somewhat self-sustaining, despite fish predation. Perhaps he'll chime in here. This has long been a goal of mine, too. But I think it would require a very big, very thinly stocked tank.

I talked about fresh water scuds but decided to pass at least for now. My main concern isn't survival but the little beasties fouling the impellers on my power heads.

 

[Back in the fold14 11]

If I remember right, @jaylach (or maybe it was @Back in the fold ?) had an established scud colony going in an undergravel filter that became somewhat self-sustaining, despite fish predation. Perhaps he'll chime in here. This has long been a goal of mine, too. But I think it would require a very big, very thinly stocked tank.

I had some in a ten gallon by themselves for a while and I would only see them occasionally . They didn’t come out and show themselves very often . I had a lot of hair algae and I heard they eat that so I didn’t really feed them . That went on for a few months , seeing them infrequently , and then I put some Fundulopanchax gardneri in there and never saw them again . I wonder what could’ve happened to them .

 

[Rusty_Shackleford57 172]

I'm considering adding scuds, ostracods, and other micro-invertebrates to make a more complete biotope tank. I probably won't add them till next spring though.

Maybe some will survive, maybe they will just be food?

 

[WhistlingBadger53 9]

I've had tanks that were full of oscracods, scuds, cyclops, and water fleas, aquatic worms...and they all disappear shortly after fish are added. But I think the live food gives the fish a good start, especially wild caught fish.

 

[Back in the fold14 11]

I've had tanks that were full of oscracods, scuds, cyclops, and water fleas, aquatic worms...and they all disappear shortly after fish are added. But I think the live food gives the fish a good start, especially wild caught fish.

I still have cyclops in that ten gallon the scuds were in . Cyclops are purty danged small and can evade fish to a certain degree .

 

[jaylach57 173]

I've had tanks that were full of oscracods, scuds, cyclops, and water fleas, aquatic worms...and they all disappear shortly after fish are added. But I think the live food gives the fish a good start, especially wild caught fish.

I think the only chance that such as scuds would have to survive with fish in the tank is if under gravel filtration is used. I say this due to the substrate being medium sized river pebbles and the water flow going through the substrate. I would think this environment gives the critters the best chance as they should actively colonize the substrate which would give them protection from most fish. Of course many would be eaten but I would think many would also survive. I also think that using twice the amount of scuds as one would normally want to start would allow many to get in the substrate while the dumb ones are snacks. I say medium river pebbles as the substrate as small pebbles would restrict their moving through the substrate but an average of 3 inches of medium river pebbles gives the critters room to 'roam about' and is also fine for filtration.

I doubt that they would do well with a sand substrate or anything that is fine as they would not have decent protection. Plants I doubt are a factor as to protection as the fish would just eat them off the plants.

I have yet to try the above so can't prove so treat this post as speculation backed with some research. As I said earlier my concern is them getting under the substrate, which they would, and fouling the impellers on my power heads. They are so small it is likely that they would just flow through the impellers but I just don't know...

 

[jaylach57 173]

Oh, something that has not been mentioned is the bio load scuds cause. They may be tiny but they are many. You would need to have a lot of surface agitation to maintain oxygen levels and populate with less fish than one may think.

Scuds are also good for tank maintenance as they will eat pretty much anything but tend to really like pumpkin. If you have multiple tanks you can put an algae infested plant in with scuds and they will remove the algae without harming the plant. The exception is some mosses which they WILL eat.

Here is a video about raising scuds from Dan's Fish. Dan is using a bare bottom tank but there are no fish involved.

dans fish scud videos - Search Videos

Watch videos instantly on Bing—enjoy direct playback, discover related clips, and dive into trending content all in one place.

www.bing.com

 

[Magnum Man58 173]

I suspect my hang on back filters would end up being a collection point, and require sorting through them at cleaning… captives could either be added back to the same tank, or fed to other tanks… however I really have no idea how small some of these are, when they are claimed to be a fraction of a mm in size, how to actually separate them from dirty filter media… maybe they break down the grunge so well the filters never actually need cleaning???

even if they were in a grow out tank, to add to another tank, curious how you would collect them, short of siphoning them out, I assume they would pass right through a traditional net???