Ich Qs

[ellena]

What a time to see signs of ich! So, Boxing Day, when I can try and get something to treat it, will treatments affect the filter bacteria? I've looked through the forum section on meds, but they didn't mention much on the effect on bacteria.
I've got meds and a spare air pump at work, but it's a school so shut now, sooooo frustrating!
I've got dwarf frogs in the tank too, does it affect them? I have a second tank, should I take any measures to avoid cross infections? I share a siphon and bucket etc between them usually.
Thanks for any help and merry Christmas

 

[eaglesaquarium]

To clean any of the things you use in more than one tank, you can use a strong salt solution.  Salt kills ich.
 
 
In fact, a heat and salt treatment is actually one of the best and safest treatments for ich.  Problem is that salt can be a problem for some fish, as can the heat.  Salt also has NO effect on the bacteria (in the concentrations we are discussing for treating ich), so you don't have to worry about that.  Also, salt has no expiration date, so I always keep a bit of salt on hand just for such a time as this.  The meds will not last forever, the salt will.
 
Heat alone can also be used to kill ich, but you need to raise the temp to 86F, I think.   Without knowing the rest of the inhabitants in the tank, its hard to give specific help, but the general treatment for ich that I use is this:  Slowly raise the temp to about 82F, slowly add salt solution to the tank (aquarium salt concentration suggest 1 tablespoon per 5 gallons), and then increase aeration as higher temps and salt decrease the ability of the water to hold oxygen.
 
 
 
Ich does not affect frogs, as far as I know, so its possible that you could QT them while you are treating the rest of the tank.   Also, the key is that the frogs may not fare well with the salt.  
 
In lieu of 'aquarium salt', regular salt can also be used.  But, given the smaller granule size, I'd cut down the volume of the salt to be mixed to about 2 teaspoons per 5 gallons. 
 
 
 
As for housing the frog, ANY container (roughly 1-3 gallons) will be fine for a short period of time, and it doesn't need to be cycled, or even have filtration.  I'd suggest that you just be sure to do 50% water changes every other day while you are treating the tank.  Decor from the tank is ok to use with them... but you'll need to give them a salt rinse as well.
 
 
 
As for the salt rinse for the tools:  I'd suggest a 1 tbsp to 1 gallon dilution.  Give them about a 1 hour soak (which is way longer than necessary) and then a good rinse in tap water... maybe even a soak as well for another hour and all shall be well.
 
 
Continue your treatment for the ich until there are no signs of ich for AT LEAST 7 days.  The ich, of course, goes through a period of its life cycle where it is not visible, and can lull you to sleep thinking its gone.  
 
 
For more information:
http/www.theaquariumwiki.com/Ich
Edit:
 
You can also use a mild bleach solution to disinfect your tools, but make sure the bleach you use has no surfactants or perfumes.

 

[ellena]

Thank you for that reply Other tank inhabitants are in my sig, hengelis rasbora and honey gourami.
I have the school betta at home for the holidays, if I put the frogs in with him, could they carry the ich across?

 

[eaglesaquarium]

Yes.  The ich COULD transfer from transferring the frogs.  And a betta that's been kept alone for a while, may not be so hospitable with tankmates.  It depends on the individual.
 
 
You could just keep the frogs in a large plastic container, not necessarily even in a tank.  
 
 
The rasboras and gourami should be fine with the temps and salt temporarily.  

 

[ellena]

Just checking in with a report. I'm trying just a temperature treatment at the moment. Over Xmas day and Boxing Day I increased it to 30C (possibly slightly higher, I've got 3 therms and they all read slightly differently!)
I read here http/www.aquahobby.com/articles/e_ich2.php

"Most strains of Ich should be eradicated by this heat treatment, but bear in mind that there is at least one strain in Florida that is known to be heat-tolerant [3]. If you do not notice a marked improvement after 3-4 days of this treatment, you should stop and consider another approach."

I still have only one fish with spots, a female gourami. She had a couple of spots xmas eve and now has perhaps 5 each side. One has burst, it was easy to see as it was quite large, but I don't know how I'd say the situation is progressing? So it's been 4 days now, I wouldn't call it a "marked improvement". Neither she or the other fish are showing any signs of distress, all acting completely normally, eating etc.
I have just found one of the frogs dead, though it looks like that was dropsy and all the rest are fine.
I bought a second siphon and bucket and I'm keeping everything separate for the other tank.
So, for now, I'm keeping the heat up and fingers crossed.

 

[Meeresstille]

Doing daily gravel vacs help reduce the number of ich that could emerge from the cysts hidden in the substrate. 

 

[eaglesaquarium]

I would consider bumping the temp a bit more if the fish are showing no signs of distress and the temp isn't actually over 30C  in all parts of the tank.  
 
 
Personally, I've never done a heat only treatment, but it seems to me that heat only is a bit dangerous.  If you turn the heat up, but not high enough, all you do is increase the life cycle of the ich.  That's why I've always done heat and salt as my preferred method of dealing with the ich.
 
 
 
As Meeresstille states... gravel vaccing will suck up the trophants (cyst like things that fall off the fish for the purpose of reproduction) and remove them so that they can't burst and release the tomites (free swimmers that can be killed by salt, heat and/or medicine) back into the water to infect the fish.

 

[ellena]

Doing daily gravel vacs help reduce the number of ich that could emerge from the cysts hidden in the substrate.

Thanks I've been doing a daily water change, getting as much as I can off the bottom, but it's sand, so I'm just sucking stuff from the surface.
I've had to move the remaining frogs out-2 more were swollen I hope it's the temp, though they've been fine since Friday, so 4 days.
So I've bumped the temp up some more and will get some salt. Fish seem fine, in fact I'm pretty sure the gouramis are trying to mate!

 

[ellena]

Just using this thread to keep track myself of what I've done.
Added salt at 1/4 teaspoon per gallon either 7 or 8 times (lost track slightly!) so up to 1 3/4 or 2 tsp/gallon
Tank 54l plus filter 6l so 60 total, just under 16 gallons (assuming US)
So 1/4 tsp/gallon is 4tsp total 8 times so 32tsp
Each bucket is about 10l 1/6 of the total, so about 5 tsp per bucket for water changes.

 

[TwoTankAmin]

Freshwater Ich
 
Symptoms: Fish look like they have little white salt grains on them and may scratch against objects in the tank.
 
White spot disease (Ichthyopthirius multifiliis) is caused by a protozoan with a life cycle that includes a free-living stage. Ich grows on a fish --> it falls off and attaches to gravel or tank glass --> it reproduces to MANY parasites --> these swarmers then attach to other fish. If the swarmers do not find a fish host, they die in about 3 days (depending on the water temperature).
 
Therefore, to treat it, medicine must be added to the display tank to kill free-living parasites. If fish are removed to quarantine, parasites living in the tank will escape the treatment -- unless ALL fish are removed for about a week in freshwater or three weeks in saltwater systems. In a reef tank, where invertebrates are sensitive to ich medications, removing the fish is the only option. Some people think that ich is probably dormant in most tanks. It is most often triggered by temperature fluctuations.
 
Remedy: For most fish, use a medication with formalin and malachite green. These are the active ingredients in many ich medications at fish shops. Some products are Kordon's Rid Ich and Aquarium Products' Quick Cure. Just read the label and you may find others. Check for temperature fluctuations in the tank and fix them to avoid recurrences. Note that tetras can be a little sensitive to malachite green, so use it at half the dose.
 
Use these products as directed (usually a daily dose) until all of the fish are spot-free. Then dose every three days for a total of four more doses. This will kill any free-swimming parasites as they hatch out of cysts.
 
Another remedy is to raise the tank temperature to about 90 deg F and add 1 tsp/gallon salt to the water. Not all fish tolerate this.
 
Finally, one can treat ich with a ``transfer method.'' Fish are moved daily into a different tank with clean, conditioned, warmed water. Parasites that came off of the fish are left behind in the tank. After moving the fish daily for a week, the fish (presumably cured) can be put back into the main tank. The disadvantage of this method is that it stresses both fish and fishkeeper.

from http/fins.actwin.com/mirror/disease-fw.html#ich
 
I am a bit confused by what burst? Ich does not burst. Are you certain it is ich?

 

[ellena]

Can't find it now, but burst was just the wording I saw used somewhere to describe when the spot falls off to the bottom of the tank.
The other female gourami has a spot now too. The one that was first infected, most of the 'salt grains' have gone, leaving behind a mark/gap in the scales.
So I'm keeping up the temp, salt and daily water changes till I see the last sign of salt grain gone and then 2 weeks after that?
I think I know where it came from too. Both lots of fish are from reputable local shops, though that doesn't mean it couldn't be from there. But I have moss balls which were from fish tanks at p@h, so I think that's the more likely culprit.
For future reference, how long should plants like that be quarantined for? Is a week long enough for all the free swimming parasites to die with no host to attach to?
It's not just ich either, presumably, what other stuff can come in with plants?
Now I've moved the frogs and started the salt treatment, it's not actually a massive pita, but I've certainly learned the value of quarantine. It was a full month from getting the gouramis to seeing the first white spot. How long should new fish be quarantined?
Thinking about it, it was 2 weeks between getting the moss balls and the gourami. The hengelis were in there during that time, but they seem unaffected so far...

 

[TwoTankAmin]

As per my above quote
 
"White spot disease (Ichthyopthirius multifiliis) is caused by a protozoan with a life cycle that includes a free-living stage. Ich grows on a fish --> it falls off and attaches to gravel or tank glass --> it reproduces to MANY parasites --> these swarmers then attach to other fish. If the swarmers do not find a fish host, they die in about 3 days (depending on the water temperature)."
"If fish are removed to quarantine, parasites living in the tank will escape the treatment -- unless ALL fish are removed for about a week in freshwater"
 
Ich needs a host, plants cannot serve as a host. The may serve as a resting place where the ich can hatch out. After that, if there are no fish to act as hosts, the ich dies. That would mean the ich did not come in with moss balls 2 weeks ago if there were other fish in the tank. Yhey would have come down with ich before the gourami went in. This would be necessary for the ich to have survived until the gourami went in.
 
As for quarantining, this is not just for ich, it is for a lot of things. Depending on the source of the fish, I use a minimum one month for tank raised fish and 3 months for wild caughts. These time frames start when the fish go into Q. If they develop symptoms which require treatment, this periods starts over from day 1 once the fish are completely cured. There are a number of parasites and diseases that can take some time to manifest.

 

[ellena]

What you've said makes sense, thanks Whereever it came from, I know for next time.
I'm hopeful for this treatment working well because the fish are acting fine and normally, so fingers crossed

 

[ellena]

Today, second female salt grain has gone. Definitely saw male flicking.

 

[ellena]

1st female has fresh grain(s) and 2nd one has another grain where first one was. Nothing on male yet...