How Much Is Too Much Filtration?

[AdAndrews]

again, cheap manufacturing

Hagen, have only put on what filter is adequete for a few fish.

 

[MermaidMel]

Tricky one for me, as my keyholes are meant to like slow waters plus I have cories that need surface agitation, though I am inclined to leave out the spray bars and have an intake and a outflow on both back walls of the tank both going in the same direction rather than pointing towards each other, what do you think?

 

[fatheadminnow]

Tricky one for me, as my keyholes are meant to like slow waters plus I have cories that need surface agitation, though I am inclined to leave out the spray bars and have an intake and a outflow on both back walls of the tank both going in the same direction rather than pointing towards each other, what do you think?

That should be fine.

-FHM

 

[raptorrex]

yeeees! ^^

what the manufacturer claims is irrelivant, having said that looking at the litres per hour statement alone isnt all that accurate, seen as thats just the output of the pump alone, not taking into consideration media, filth, pipes, and connections that all slow thing down.. my 600lph external is probably doing 300lph at most.

my point exactly. the flow rates are "stories". in most cases, not very true ones at that. though its not true to say that the filters state "pump" flow only, though some do. others use some form of media, for the tests. whichever case, the rates are, at best guesses. which is odd, if you think of the conversation we are having, ATM, on water changes. where people go to minute lengths with those, but guess at, possibly, the most important part of keeping fish healthy.

measuring the flow of your filter is not too difficult. take a container and time how long it takes to fill (2l is enough). weigh the result, multiply the time and you get a, good, gage of your real flow.

Yes, you are right, and this is what we are talking about right now. That the flow rates are just really "guesses," that's a good way to put it. Some manufactures, more likely most, will test the flow rate of their product without any media in the filter. This number would obviously decrease when there is resistance introduced to the flow; filter media. Luckily, for the most part, the 5x turn over rate, and so forth with other turn over rates, take this "decrease" into account.

So, if you go by the manufacture claimed flow rates, and try to get lets say a 10x turn over, then you should be just fine. But there are other means you can take to fins an even more accurate flow rate by what what said above.

-FHM

you see, this is why i have the problems with people stating turnover for their tanks. its a guess, and not even an "educated" one! you , clearly, look into this. yet, even you, have not thought to ask the makers, how they measure their flow. would that not be the obvious way to start? (well, if you are going to guess) as i said in a previous post. flow is not, too, hard to measure. yet only, myself and one other (on this forum) have bothered to try. true measuring flow for a minute is not "totally accurate. but if you repeat the measurement, three or four times, and average the result. its a damned sight more accurate than dumping 50% of manufacturers claims, and saying "i have 5x."

no, the flow rate isnt a guess... its the actual rate that the pump supplied will work at, just the pump, with no connections at all, not the basket full of water, nothing.

actually, that's not true. all external makers measure with the pump in the filter. but only some use media, only a very few use, furniture and media. and only 1 uses a full set of "recommended" media and a full set of furniture.
the variance in how makers measure their flow, makes the "guess" flow rates far less accurate. one size does not fit all. but you would think that if you read threads on the subject.
you can tell a good maker though. they have, both a pump rating, and a filter flow rate.

 

[raptorrex]

Tricky one for me, as my keyholes are meant to like slow waters plus I have cories that need surface agitation, though I am inclined to leave out the spray bars and have an intake and a outflow on both back walls of the tank both going in the same direction rather than pointing towards each other, what do you think?

sorry to double post. but would the answer to your dilemma not be a sump?

 

[MermaidMel]

Can't really have a sump, corner tank means tight space under the cabinet and small children + sump = disaster, plus I know nothing about sumps at all and find the idea of having one really daunting for some reason

 

[raptorrex]

Can't really have a sump, corner tank means tight space under the cabinet and small children + sump = disaster, plus I know nothing about sumps at all and find the idea of having one really daunting for some reason

you sound just like me. I've looked into sumps, several times. it just makes my head spin. however, to reduces flow, and maintain good bio filtration, it has few peers.

 

[Haych]

erm... dunno if its relevant anymore, but my point was, no you cant have too much filtration, but to keep plenty of surface water movement i have 2 filters running on my 260l tank, i have an ex1200 (up to 500l) AND an ex700 (up to 250l). the 1200 has the spray bar, and the 700 has no end on so just squirts out and the harlequins love it

dunno what the turnover is though. but i have at least 90-95% water movement/surface agitation, and tbf, the tank looks alot clearer too

 

[raptorrex]

erm... dunno if its relevant anymore, but my point was, no you cant have too much filtration, but to keep plenty of surface water movement i have 2 filters running on my 260l tank, i have an ex1200 (up to 500l) AND an ex700 (up to 250l). the 1200 has the spray bar, and the 700 has no end on so just squirts out and the harlequins love it

dunno what the turnover is though. but i have at least 90-95% water movement/surface agitation, and tbf, the tank looks alot clearer too

I agree, its hard to have too much filtration. but is that filtration effective? as for your turnover, i dont know your media and furniture. but my test shows the EX1200 can, just, pump 500lph. the EX700 strains at 320lph its a only rough idea. and it will change with the media used. so, you have, very roughly 820lph in your 260l tank. so 3x and a bit turnover. the reason the figures are so low is, the Tetras are measured( by the maker) empty with no tubing
where do you get the "90-95% water movement figure. do you mean you can see surface disruption over that % of the water? if so, could that not be done with a fan?

 

[Schmill]

Just a quick note to the OP, (and some others), pay attention to the difference between 'filter turnover' and 'circulation turnover'.

One involves actaully passing the water through your filtration system, the other involves just moving it around in the tank.

For instance, I have a 300L tank with a 1200LPH filter on it. At 'face value' this gives me 4x turnover, if I was to try and achieve 10 or 20x FILTERED turnover then I would require 2, or 5 filters, which would be rediculous and take up far to much space.
However my single filter is able to cope with the ammonia load of the fully stocked tank, but just doesn't move the water very much, so I don't NEED more filtration turnover, but circulation turnover which is considerably easer to add via powerheads etc. For example, adding a single 850GPH Koralia 3 powerhead would give me an EXTRA 3,217LPH circulation turnover, which is 10x just on it's own

Incidently, my filter is an Aqua one filter, and they are one manufacturer that is certainly open and honest about the power of their filter. The packaging / manual quite clearly states that whilst the 'pump' can do 1200LPH, once the filter is filled with the recommended media, pipes are attached of x length and the water is being pumped up to a head height of y meters (ie. the top of your tank), the flowrate will actually be approximately z. Of course this still won't take into account of wear and tear over time, nor the clogging of filter media, gunking of pipes etc, but it does seem to be a #41#### sight more informative than most manufacturers

 

[raptorrex]

Just a quick note to the OP, (and some others), pay attention to the difference between 'filter turnover' and 'circulation turnover'.

One involves actaully passing the water through your filtration system, the other involves just moving it around in the tank.

For instance, I have a 300L tank with a 1200LPH filter on it. At 'face value' this gives me 4x turnover, if I was to try and achieve 10 or 20x FILTERED turnover then I would require 2, or 5 filters, which would be rediculous and take up far to much space.
However my single filter is able to cope with the ammonia load of the fully stocked tank, but just doesn't move the water very much, so I don't NEED more filtration turnover, but circulation turnover which is considerably easer to add via powerheads etc. For example, adding a single 850GPH Koralia 3 powerhead would give me an EXTRA 3,217LPH circulation turnover, which is 10x just on it's own

Incidently, my filter is an Aqua one filter, and they are one manufacturer that is certainly open and honest about the power of their filter. The packaging / manual quite clearly states that whilst the 'pump' can do 1200LPH, once the filter is filled with the recommended media, pipes are attached of x length and the water is being pumped up to a head height of y meters (ie. the top of your tank), the flowrate will actually be approximately z. Of course this still won't take into account of wear and tear over time, nor the clogging of filter media, gunking of pipes etc, but it does seem to be a #41#### sight more informative than most manufacturers

indeed, good point. but, as far as i am aware, 5x turnover is a filtration requirement/ ideal point. but over that , unless you have a planted tank, further turnover is pointless.

as you say Aqua one, along with Eheim, post flow and pump power. only difference, from the emails i have, seems to be Aqua one, use supplied media. and Eheim use the "recommended".

only other point i will make is. just because something is expensive even, difficult, to do. does not mean it should not be done, or attempted.

 

[fatheadminnow]

Just a quick note to the OP, (and some others), pay attention to the difference between 'filter turnover' and 'circulation turnover'.

One involves actaully passing the water through your filtration system, the other involves just moving it around in the tank.

For instance, I have a 300L tank with a 1200LPH filter on it. At 'face value' this gives me 4x turnover, if I was to try and achieve 10 or 20x FILTERED turnover then I would require 2, or 5 filters, which would be rediculous and take up far to much space.
However my single filter is able to cope with the ammonia load of the fully stocked tank, but just doesn't move the water very much, so I don't NEED more filtration turnover, but circulation turnover which is considerably easer to add via powerheads etc. For example, adding a single 850GPH Koralia 3 powerhead would give me an EXTRA 3,217LPH circulation turnover, which is 10x just on it's own

Incidently, my filter is an Aqua one filter, and they are one manufacturer that is certainly open and honest about the power of their filter. The packaging / manual quite clearly states that whilst the 'pump' can do 1200LPH, once the filter is filled with the recommended media, pipes are attached of x length and the water is being pumped up to a head height of y meters (ie. the top of your tank), the flowrate will actually be approximately z. Of course this still won't take into account of wear and tear over time, nor the clogging of filter media, gunking of pipes etc, but it does seem to be a #41#### sight more informative than most manufacturers

I was referring to the flow rate of the filter for the most part.

Like saying that there is going be a limit at which point it would be pointless to have a higher flow rate.

Here is an example:

If you can achieve the same effect with a 10x turn over rate, say with a 20x+ (to infinity) flow rate, then what would be the point of running a larger filter, which would equal a higher turn over rate. That is why I said 20x, because I believe after 20x, the advantages of having a higher flow rate is not going to increase anymore, rather just stay the same.

-FHM

 

[markandhisfish]

Is there such a thing as too much?
I have got some long awaited much researched keyhole cichlids and they are a couple of inches each, this is bigger fish than I've had before and they are sharing a 50 gallon with a fluval 405 but thinking should i add another? I know it's already really over filtrated but the size of their poo is shocking lol! The amount of decor in the tank doesn't allow for thorough poo removal by net or syphon alone and being a corner tank I wanted both corners of the tank to have intake, which would mean 2 filters. What do you think?

if all your fish are stuck to the glass at 1 end of the tank you probably have too much

 

[Haych]

erm... dunno if its relevant anymore, but my point was, no you cant have too much filtration, but to keep plenty of surface water movement i have 2 filters running on my 260l tank, i have an ex1200 (up to 500l) AND an ex700 (up to 250l). the 1200 has the spray bar, and the 700 has no end on so just squirts out and the harlequins love it

dunno what the turnover is though. but i have at least 90-95% water movement/surface agitation, and tbf, the tank looks alot clearer too

I agree, its hard to have too much filtration. but is that filtration effective? as for your turnover, i dont know your media and furniture. but my test shows the EX1200 can, just, pump 500lph. the EX700 strains at 320lph its a only rough idea. and it will change with the media used. so, you have, very roughly 820lph in your 260l tank. so 3x and a bit turnover. the reason the figures are so low is, the Tetras are measured( by the maker) empty with no tubing
where do you get the "90-95% water movement figure. do you mean you can see surface disruption over that % of the water? if so, could that not be done with a fan?

not really there aint anywhere to have it , but i had the second filter added and its clearing my water easier really, not for surface agitation. there was enough oxygen in the water, never had fish gasping

Is there such a thing as too much?
I have got some long awaited much researched keyhole cichlids and they are a couple of inches each, this is bigger fish than I've had before and they are sharing a 50 gallon with a fluval 405 but thinking should i add another? I know it's already really over filtrated but the size of their poo is shocking lol! The amount of decor in the tank doesn't allow for thorough poo removal by net or syphon alone and being a corner tank I wanted both corners of the tank to have intake, which would mean 2 filters. What do you think?

if all your fish are stuck to the glass at 1 end of the tank you probably have too much

that picture just made me laugh!

 

[Miss Dib Dabs]

I love the imagery that comment made with fish sticking to the tank.
I ran my last malawi tank with a tetratec 1200 and an ehiem (not sure which kind it is). When I transferred them to their 6ft home I added a second tetratec as there appeared to be an awful lot more fish than I'd realised. The filters coped fine but adding the third has shown a difference in behaviour. The catfish play in the bubbles the new one creates, and when you consider they're between 8 and 12" it's a funny sight. Yet if I work out the ideal needed for a tank that size and the high stocking I'd need to add another, the largest tetratec (2400) available.
P.