High Ammonia

[Tim13]

Hi, I have a tropical tank that has been set up for about 2 weeks now. I have 3 zebra danios and 1 priscilla tetra. I was told by employees of 2 different fish stores that I should not do a single water change for 1-2 months and to only add water when it evaporates. They stressed the importance of not taking any water at all out for 2 months. The ammonia reads very high. Should I do a water change and will that prolong the cycle like i have been told?

Thanks,
Tim

 

[Curiosity101]

Wow, that some absolutely terrible advice you've been given. It's good to see the common sense side of you brain went 'Wait a sec...isn't this going to kill my fish'
You are 100% correct, high ammonia = dead fish.
I personally would:
1) Go to the beginner section on this site and read the Fish-in cycling, and Fishless cycling topic.
2) Armed with this information I would return the fish to the store, telling them just how terrible their advice was.
3) Read fishless cycling topic again and proceed to cycle your tank in this manner instead.

But...if you don't want to return the fish (and it's completely your choice), then you need to be doing as many water changes as it takes to give you 0.25ppm of ammonia or less.
Eg. Ammonia is at 4ppm so do an 80% change and you will then have 0.8ppm ammonia. Do another 80% and you will have 0.16ppm of ammonia...make sense?

Large water changes are bad for fish, BUT, depending on ammonia test results. Large water changes are the safer option than leaving them in water with high ammonia levels.

What is the size of the tank and all of the water stats, ie. Ammonia, Nitrite, Nitrate and pH?

Good-luck and welcome to TFF

 

[Tim13]

Wow, that some absolutely terrible advice you've been given. It's good to see the common sense side of you brain went 'Wait a sec...isn't this going to kill my fish'
You are 100% correct, high ammonia = dead fish.
I personally would:
1) Go to the beginner section on this site and read the Fish-in cycling, and Fishless cycling topic.
2) Armed with this information I would return the fish to the store, telling them just how terrible their advice was.
3) Read fishless cycling topic again and proceed to cycle your tank in this manner instead.

But...if you don't want to return the fish (and it's completely your choice), then you need to be doing as many water changes as it takes to give you 0.25ppm of ammonia or less.
Eg. Ammonia is at 4ppm so do an 80% change and you will then have 0.8ppm ammonia. Do another 80% and you will have 0.16ppm of ammonia...make sense?

Large water changes are bad for fish, BUT, depending on ammonia test results. Large water changes are the safer option than leaving them in water with high ammonia levels.

What is the size of the tank and all of the water stats, ie. Ammonia, Nitrite, Nitrate and pH?

Good-luck and welcome to TFF

Well I would like to keep the fish. I will do the water change but I was told that it would either kill the beneficial bacteria or slow down its growth. Is this true?

 

[Curiosity101]

No to both.
What they told you was about as true as 'Fill up the tank and leave it for a week then you can add fish'...cause err exactly what is the difference between putting fish in after 1 hour and 1 week of filling the tank

Seriously you NEED to get ammonia down to safe levels. You didn't answer my question by the way.

What is the size of the tank and all of the water stats, ie. Ammonia, Nitrite, Nitrate and pH?

Also if you are doing a fish in cycle then read this - Fish-In Cycling Guide
You really do need to read all of the info there. It will be the difference between your fish living or dying...not that I'm trying to sound dramatic...

 

[Tim13]

No to both.
What they told you was about as true as 'Fill up the tank and leave it for a week then you can add fish'...cause err exactly what is the difference between putting fish in after 1 hour and 1 week of filling the tank

Seriously you NEED to get ammonia down to safe levels. You didn't answer my question by the way.

What is the size of the tank and all of the water stats, ie. Ammonia, Nitrite, Nitrate and pH?

Also if you are doing a fish in cycle then read this - Fish-In Cycling Guide
You really do need to read all of the info there. It will be the difference between your fish living or dying...not that I'm trying to sound dramatic...

Ammonia is pretty high around 4ppm and the others are hard to tell because I only have a dipstick kit for them and it is very hard to read. I am going to get a new one asap. It is a 10 gallon tank. I used a liquid neutral regulator 2 weeks ago upon setting up. It also removes chlorine, chloramine, and ammonia. It is made by seachem and was recommended. I def. can't do an 80% change at once. I will do a smaller one like 30-40 and wait a day and do another. As long as i condition the water it shouldn't kill or slow down bacteria growth?

 

[Curiosity101]

If you can't do 80% at once then you will need to do this many changes today...
4ppm - 40% change = 2.4ppm
2.4ppm - 40% change = 1.44ppm
1.44ppm - 40% change = 0.86ppm
0.86ppm - 40% change = 0.5ppm
0.5ppm - 40% change = 0.31ppm
0.31ppm - 40% change = 0.18ppm

So presuming you are doing 40% changes you will need to do 6 today to get the levels down to something safe. Doing just one today will only lower ammonia to 2.4ppm which is still VERY VERY dangerous and will be causing chemical burns inside the gills and perhaps start wearing away the slime coating on the fish.
The obviously by tomorrow it will have climbed back up to 3/4ppm of ammonia tomorrow.

As you said you need a better test kit. Liquid kits are the best by a long way. I've had both and didn't realise just how bad the dip-sticks were until I got a liquid one.

And what is this 'liquid neutral regulators' name? I know you said it was made by seachem, but exactly what type is it.

If you add de-clorinator before replacing water (also known as tap water conditioner), then yes you wont kill the bacteria.

 

[Tim13]

If you can't do 80% at once then you will need to do this many changes today...
4ppm - 40% change = 2.4ppm
2.4ppm - 40% change = 1.44ppm
1.44ppm - 40% change = 0.86ppm
0.86ppm - 40% change = 0.5ppm
0.5ppm - 40% change = 0.31ppm
0.31ppm - 40% change = 0.18ppm

So presuming you are doing 40% changes you will need to do 6 today to get the levels down to something safe. Doing just one today will only lower ammonia to 2.4ppm which is still VERY VERY dangerous and will be causing chemical burns inside the gills and perhaps start wearing away the slime coating on the fish.
The obviously by tomorrow it will have climbed back up to 3/4ppm of ammonia tomorrow.

As you said you need a better test kit. Liquid kits are the best by a long way. I've had both and didn't realise just how bad the dip-sticks were until I got a liquid one.

And what is this 'liquid neutral regulators' name? I know you said it was made by seachem, but exactly what type is it.

If you add de-clorinator before replacing water (also known as tap water conditioner), then yes you wont kill the bacteria.

it is ph 7.0 regulator. And i will do the best i can with the water changes. I just can't believe 2 different stores told me the same thing about no water changes. should i vacuum the gravel too?

 

[Curiosity101]

What is the pH of you tapwater? (get a cup of it and leave it for an hour then test the pH) Unless you tapwater is either pH 6 and below or 8 and above. Then there's no need to use a pH regulator. I promise.

What is your tap water conditioner called?

And do you understand why it's so important to do all these water changes... I know you have been given terrible advice by those pet shops...but you really need to follow the info above to avoid killing any of your fish.

Oh, and I wouldn't go to those shops in future if there are any others you can visit instead.

Yes you should vacuum the gravel, just to remove any decomposing fish waste which will add to the ammonia in the tank.

 

[Tim13]

What is the pH of you tapwater? (get a cup of it and leave it for an hour then test the pH) Unless you tapwater is either pH 6 and below or 8 and above. Then there's no need to use a pH regulator. I promise.

What is your tap water conditioner called?

And do you understand why it's so important to do all these water changes... I know you have been given terrible advice by those pet shops...but you really need to follow the info above to avoid killing any of your fish.

Oh, and I wouldn't go to those shops in future if there are any others you can visit instead.

Yes you should vacuum the gravel, just to remove any decomposing fish waste which will add to the ammonia in the tank.

Tetra "Aqua Safe". And i will look into ph tomorrow when i get a new kit. Will the bacteria still be able to grow with the low levels of ammonia healthy for the fish?

 

[Curiosity101]

The bacteria will grow even if your test kit reads 0 ammonia. If you think of it this way, whilever there is ammonia present then the bacteria can feed and reproduce. And even if you removed all the water and put the fish in fresh dechlorinated water then there will be ammonia present instantly as the fish are constantly producing it.

You only need a tiny amount of ammonia more than the bacteria can instantly cycle for the bacteria levels to increase.

The only reason I keep saying keeping it below 0.25ppm is because this is as low as you can reasonably aim to keep the ammonia until the tank cycles. Not because that is the lowest level you can lower ammonia before slowing the cycle.

You WILL NOT slow the cycle by doing water changes. It will go at the same speed, but your fish will be more likely to survive the cycling process.

 

[Tim13]

The bacteria will grow even if your test kit reads 0 ammonia. If you think of it this way, whilever there is ammonia present then the bacteria can feed and reproduce. And even if you removed all the water and put the fish in fresh dechlorinated water then there will be ammonia present instantly as the fish are constantly producing it.

You only need a tiny amount of ammonia more than the bacteria can instantly cycle for the bacteria levels to increase.

The only reason I keep saying keeping it below 0.25ppm is because this is as low as you can reasonably aim to keep the ammonia until the tank cycles. Not because that is the lowest level you can lower ammonia before slowing the cycle.

You WILL NOT slow the cycle by doing water changes. It will go at the same speed, but your fish will be more likely to survive the cycling process.

Ok, thank you. You're advice is greatly appreciated.

 

[m00se]

Good luck and sorry for the awful, awful advice you've been given. You're in safe hands here, there are some seriously knowledgeable people on TFF

Curiosity has walked you through the basics so far and the rest is a matter of time. You really need a liquid test kit pronto, though, so we can help you better.

Also, it's worth stating if it wasn't blindingly obvious - don't ever go back to those LFSs again!

Good luck, you came to a good place to get your problems sorted out

 

[Tim13]

I got a liquid ph test kit and tested my water right out of the tap and it is as high as my test scale goes(7.6) I put a 7.0 regulator in and it doesn't seem to have worked for the ph

 

[afishdude]

The ph regulators do not work. They are just another way to take your money.

If you can do this one thing, it will help us out a tremendous bit. Test your ammonia and post it. Do a water change and test again and post that result.

Water changes do not hurt your fish one bit. All of your bacteria is in the filter so changing the water will not effect this one bit.



Keep this in the back of your mind. Pet shops are after ONE thing, your money. They will purposely give you the wrong advice so you spend more money. They will tell you to not do water changes so your fish die and you will come back. When you come back they will either tell you that the fish was sick and you need to buy more, or they will sell you products to 'fix' the problem, which they don't.

 

[Curiosity101]

What are your full tank stats?

I really wouldn't worry about the tap pH, take a sample, leave it overnight and then test the pH in the morning to get an accurate pH measurment.

But unless it is ridiculously high then you really don't need to do anything to change it.