Help..

[-germ-]

Help. New to the forum.... hello all. Just made a possible error and run (blame the girlfriend) into aquarium keeping, with little thought to our lack of fish knowledge. We have a 65litre tank with 4 angels, 2 peach gourami and 2 snakeskin gourami.... Also a black shark which is currently in solitary confinement in the first tank we bought (last sunday) due to his territorial behaviour. Aside from the obvious mistakes (2 aquariums in a week, no research, no brain?) is this a viable community (with/without the black shark). OR is it another trip to the bank.
Apologies to all fish lovers who's disdain i probably deserve.....
Any advice?

 

[flyhigh]

Help. New to the forum.... hello all. Just made a possible error and run (blame the girlfriend) into aquarium keeping, with little thought to our lack of fish knowledge. We have a 65litre tank with 4 angels, 2 peach gourami and 2 snakeskin gourami....
Any advice?

I'm aslo a newbie, but what I do know is that you're way overstocked. Just the Angelfish alone are too much. I have a 75 liter tank and it would be recommended to have a max of 2 angelfish and nothing else since the grow pretty large.

 

[-germ-]

As they are all relatively young is it not sufficient as a starter tank for while they develop?

 

[Tessla]

That's about 17 US gallons, much too small for the angels, they're not good at all to keep in a starter tank as they're very delicate when young. The peach gourami would be fine in your tank, but I think the snakeskin would get too big. If you go for a gourami, keep one male by himself or one male with two females (you could probably only get away with having three honey gouramis in your tank, others get too big.) Black sharks need 55 gallons minimum and can be very aggressive, not a community fish at all.

Your best bet would be to take all of your fish back, including any you have in the first tank. If you keep them, they'll likely all die from ammonia poisoning. Then, read up on the nitrogen cycle and fishless cycling, get yourself some ammonia and start fishless cycling your tanks. While you're fishless cycling, you can research species of fish to keep in your tanks and plan out stocking levels. When your tanks are ready to add fish, add only a few at a time, starting with the hardiest species.

 

[-germ-]

Thanks very much for your reply Tessla.
Just to amend some of my earlier information;
The black shark is being returned today, so he is no longer an issue.
The 1st tank appears to be cycling, its a week old? ( is it a true cycle or am i interpreting it wrong?) does that give us the ability to use it as a second home or as a provider of filter media?
Filter media? Please explain further if i may be so bold.....
(ie. how do i gather it? what is it? and where do i put it?)
The gourami species are actually 2 dwarves and two gold(?) gourami showing wild colouring.
Would the tank suffice until the fish begin to grow, as the angels are only infants?
Ummm.... sorry, alot of questions, we are not going to take the fish back. I am convinced with the right info and hard work that i'll manage to do it, but any advice would be a great help!
Also where do you get your fish info?
The most popular fish sites are very pretty and such, but this is the only one that seems to provide any straightforward and functional fish-info. Any recommendations?
Cheers,
The Germ

 

[Tessla]

My fish info has been collected from all over, a great deal of it recently from browsing this forum, previously from books, magazines and knowledgeable local fish store types (all pre- internet, it's much easier now.) Most of your questions starting out can be answered by pinned topics on these forums, http/badmanstropicalfish.com/ has some great articles. For species specific information on my favorite fish, I like Planet Catfish and Loaches Online, most everything else except puffers I plug into google and read through as many articles as I can find, going with the largest minimum tank recommended and largest maximum size. The biggest trouble with most of the reliable fish info avaliable is that it reads like a science textbook, so hopefully you were/are a fan of biology and chemistry.

Sounds like it's time for the nitrogen cycle chat. Unless you're very lucky, the average local fish store employee doesn't seem to be capable of understanding it enough to explain it to every new fishowner that walks in the door, which is why you didn't hear it from them. Whenever someone on these forums refers to cycling a tank, they're referring to the nitrogen cycle as it applies to aquatic life, even though it sounds like it means that you should just run your tank empty for a week. The problem is, fish produce ammonia as waste, which is extremely toxic to fish. When you're cycling, preferably fishless cycling, you're building up bacteria that break the ammonia down into less toxic substances. The first kind of bacteria to build up will convert ammonia to nitrites, the presence of nitrites will encourage a second kind to build up that will convert the nitrites to the least toxic nitrates. Regular water changes (10-20% weekly usually) keep nitrate levels down. All of these bacteria colonise your filter media (sponges, cartridges and such that are kept in your filter.)

The trouble with filling a tank with clean water and adding fish is that the bacteria haven't had time build up, so the ammonia builds up and kills the fish. Before someone had the bright idea to use household ammonia in their tank to get the cycle started, we all had to buy hardy fish, do frequent water changes every other day and pray that our fish didn't die. It's a bit of a pain doing your first cycle, but any tank after that can be "cloned" from an existing healthy tank by borrowing a bit of filter media and putting it in the new tank's filter at the same time as a few fish are added. Any fully cycled tank will have readings of zero for ammonia and nitrites at all times, if you haven't got a good liquid test kit (API does a good freshwater master kit) now would be a good time to get one. Make sure that you can test for ammonia, nitrites, nitrates and pH.

Once your tank is cycled (by fishless cycling or cloning from an existing healthy tank) you can start to add fish slowly, but not every kind of fish will do well in a newly cycled tank and no fish will do well in a cycling tank. The biggest problem with your angels right now is not that they'll get to big for your tank, but that young angels especially are extremely vulnerable in new tanks and yours hasn't even cycled yet, making matters even worse. I'd be shocked if any of your angels survive the cycling process. As for the gouramis, they tend to be much hardier than young angels but are still not very well suited to a brand new tank, I'd also be suprised if they survive the cycling process. You've also got too many gouramis for that tank, the males are very territorial fish and you've likely got two male dwarf gouramis unless one is extremely drab in color. If you do want to keep gouramis once you've got your cycle sorted out, either go for a single fish or a trio of one male with two females of a small species like the honey gourami. Your best bet right now would be to return them all ASAP, do daily ten percent water changes (with dechlorinated water of course) to keep ammonia down until then.

Filter media I can help you with a lot more if I know what sort of filter you have running on your tanks.

 

[-germ-]

I was looking particularily for a comprehensive species index, although now i'll probably amazon some angel and gourami books, have you any recommended publishers, authors?
Its an aquaone filter, that came with the aquamode 600 tank.
Composed of a filter sponge, ceramic noodles and a charcoal/carbon filter.
To that i've added some cartridges designed for other filters, both resin filled teabags (at least they resemble teabags) one for a Fluval that apparently(?) helps remove phosphates, nitrates and nitrites, the other from a company i can't remember that apparently(?) helps filter ammonia.
The original filter quality seems poor, have you any experience of Aquaone products?
We've been doing 25% water changes (with treated and tested water ) daily to keep chemical build up as low as possible and i'm also in contact with a local member of this site in order to try and get some working filter media.
We are testing ammonia and nitrite twice daily (although i am suspicious of our testing kits quality) and Ph, O2(might as well) and nitrates once a day.
My gfs chemistry knowledge is good and she understands the ins-and-outs of the technicalities alot better than me.
We've added ammonia based start up to our (now) empty spare tank in order to accelerate the cycling process.
Oscar the baby black shark went back to the shop yesterday, and after knowing smiles and smug looks from the staff and such patronising comments as ;
"This is the monster you were talking about! i thought he'd be this big!" ( stretches arms to a foot apart).
He promptly proceeded to terrorize his new Pleco tankmate to the bafflement of the afformentioned staff.
Laters Oscar Be good.

 

[KathyM]

When will you be returning the other fish? Angels in particular need immaculate water, which you just can't provide now. They also need a lot more space to grow properly. I realise you want to "succeed" but part of that success lies in doing what's right and taking these fish back.

Good luck with the cycling

 

[-germ-]

oh....
From the moral standpoint i agree it would be a good idea to return the fish, but having experienced the fact that the shop in question is happy to sell uncompatible fish to new owners with no experience with little (and false, money-hungry) advice.
I'd much rather take reponsibilty for them than a new owner who may not be willing (or aware they need) to spend hours on the internet, constant cash on any products that may benefit the fish and many hours a day testing, watching for signs of stress and water changing.
Just purging my anxieties.....

 

[-germ-]

And i'll be buying a new 55 gallon tank at the end of this month.....
From a shop that deserves my money!
That is if am (perhaps naively) correct in thinking i can pull this off and would be right to do so.....

I hope i do!

I'd be gutted if my ego ends up in fishy funerals!

 

[KathyM]

We all go through the same, I think most people will tell you there aren't many cracking fish shops to be honest. That's why it's best to know what you want and what they need before you go in and buy (easier said than done as a beginner, as we've all learned).

However, for these angelfish, you're looking at needing a 29g tank (or bigger) now. I know people say 29g for adults, but as babies they need impeccable water and just as much space to grow properly. They're also partiularly prone to stress induced illness (have a read of my old threads if you want to see the palaver we had with them at first *lol*), and cycling process = stress.

Much as I sympathise with your wish to "save" these fish from the evil fish shop, there's going to be just as many that replace them, and in your case it's not saving them really if you're honest, is it? I know that feeling though - every time Igo down the fish shop I feel pretty much the same. But to save them I'd have to provide what they need, if you get me. I can't do that for them all, so I choose not to buy from them and to go to other better suppliers instead. Kindof voting with my feet.

Edit: Didn't see your last post. Cool - get the tank ASAP and get some media off someone on here, then you'll be sorted

 

[-germ-]

Hmmm....
Vive la fishy revolucion???
Thanks very much Kathy
I'll let you know what happens.
I'm not too pig-headed to accept my mistake.
I am however much too pig-headed to take my fish back there. They had a dead angel in their tanks, and a couple dead of other species (great fish care) and while telling the moronic and immature (18-20ish) staff-member about Oscars (the black shark) aggressive tendancies, especially towards Angels, he thought it'd be funny to explain how hilarious and what a good investement it'd be to buy Oscar and a few Angels to see the obviously fatal result!!
What a --insert numerous vulgarities here-- !!!
I walked away without comment, knowing that my being incarcerated would be detrimental to my fishes health, but people like that need stuffing in tanks with aggressive animals
(me 1st )
This site is brilliant,
thanks to anyone who's given me advice so far.

 

[vinylman]

Germ,
Welcome to the wonderful world of (some) half-witted LFS staff. As has been mentioned here many, many times before, a lot of them give you advice to keep you going back; ''dead fish? - I'd better go back and buy some more'', so don't feel too bad. As for what fish you'd like to keep, find out what your ph and water hardness is. That way, you can draw up a list of fish to suit your water conditions - it saves a lot of grief later on. Good luck, and don't stop asking questions. If no one asked questions, we'd still be living in caves and wouldn't know anything.

 

[-germ-]

I agree, but surely there must be some sort of procedure or standard in place to stop this sort of behaviour?

I've worked in sales for 3 years and while it is common practice to behave like this, at the end of the day you are just creating problems and eventually word of mouth kicks in and potential customers avoid you.

In the long run it results in a downward spiral of less custom, greater need for sales which results in more customer manipulation and therefore an even worse reputation.

Do LFS staff use the lack of LFS's as a way to basically bully the customer into buying their products, or is there an abundance of morons such as myself?

Do you know of a naming and shaming thread or site?

Cheers anyway
The Germ

 

[Tessla]

There is an incredible lack common knowledge when it comes to fishkeeping, so many LFS get away with all sorts of bad info and untrained staff. There is also an abundance of morons quite unlike yourself who do not go searching for information, do not take advice and are very happy if their fish lives for a few months in an improper setup. (You are actively seeking out advice and information and actually listening to it, not very moronic.) Some are quite good, it depends mostly on the management.

If you can get some mature filter media and keep up on water changes (you'll have to test your water frequently for ammonia, nitrites and nitrates, first two should be at zero always) you can probably keep the angels so long as you're getting that 55 gallon set up soon.