Nitrite Spike - Need help

[Aquarium Hobbyist Noob]

Ugh. Please be kind.
As I've done more research, I realize I have probably committed about every cardinal offense a new aquarist could make.
Trust me, I'm beating myself up enough for all of you.

I know you need the water and aquarium stats. I'll share what I know:

Fish:
2 honey gourami
1 3-spot gourami
6 neon tetras
7 harlequin rasboras
1 bristlenose pleco (very young, only about 2.5")
3 black mollies
5 little ghost shrimp
I'm well under the 1" of fish per gallon rule of thumb.

Tank is 60 gallons
pH - 8.2 (it's high because I've been using our well water instead of store-bought distilled)
Hardness - About 200 ppm (it's well water... it's crazy hard, and the cold water isn't softened)
Ammonia - 0
Nitrate - 0 ppm
Nitrite - .5-1.0 ppm
This right here alone is a hot mess.
It gets better.

I had added a few neon tetras to my tank a couple weeks ago. I had upgraded from a 35 gal to this 60 gal about a month ago. I wanted to fill out the little schools. Everything was fine. They integrated, everything was going swimmingly, everyone seemed to be happy and chill.

Then the spots showed up. I couldn't figure it out. There were no sick fish in the tanks at the store. I was so careful. And now I had ich in my aquarium.

So... I know, stupid... I treated the whole lot of them in my display tank. With Seachem Cupramine. I basically dropped a nuclear bomb into my aquarium. It took about 10 days for the spots to go away. I lost one neon tetra.

I followed the directions on the Cupramine. I turned off my carbon filtration system. Kept the under-gravel system going. Couldn't test the copper levels because the test kit I ordered right after I read the Cupramine label still hasn't arrived. But didn't do any water changes. I trusted the instructions. There was nothing about water changes until after the treatment.

I figured I would just suck it up and do what I need to clean it up when it was done, since I went off and used the big guns as a knee-jerk reaction. (I read after the fact that I could have just increased the water temp and added some salt. Fantastic. <<facepalm>>) But, hey, I did take the ghost shrimp out before treating, so there's that. They're hanging out in a 3 gallon mini aquarium. and seem to be doing fine.

I bought a couple cupri-sorb pads to clean it up, and a copper test, which still hasn't arrive yet. I made plans to just clean it up and move on.

But then last night, I noticed that my rasboras were acting... weird. They were wall surfing like crazy. And a couple of them looked pale-ish. Which I knew meant they were stressed. But everyone else was acting like nothing's wrong. I did a quick round of tests and realized oh crap!! The nitrite is off the charts.

I did a 50% water change. Usually when I do a water change, I would add Seachem Prime. But I didn't. Thankfully we have well-water and it's not treated. No chlorine added. But I had nothing to add to condition it. I put the 2 Cupri-sorb pads in to at least get started on removing the copper. Went to bed, crossed my fingers.

Everyone was alive this am. Retested the water. Nitrites are STILL off the charts. So I did *another* 50% water change today. Added some Top Fin bacteria starter (doesn't have the water conditioner in it, just the nitrifying bacteria to combat the Nitrite). Which brings us to where I am now, at the .5-1.0 ppm reading for the Nitrite. And I still don't have a way to test the copper levels.

I've done two 50% water changes.
I don't know what else to do to get the nitrite down.
My rasboras are still freaking out. (Everyone else, still pretty chill)
Without the Cupramine, in this situation, I would just add Seachem Prime, and keep up with that for a week or so to get the bacteria colonies back up and doing their thing again.

But having treated with the Cupramine throws it all off. Everything I'm reading online says that mixing Cupramine with Prime is a huge DO NOT DO THIS.

So what do I do to get the nitrite down?
Can I do three 50% water changes in a day?
Do I empty the entire tank and then just add Prime assuming enough of the copper is gone now that I've already done two 50%?
I feel like no matter what I do, I'm going to stress the poor things to the point of breaking.
Help me, Aquarist-Kenobi, you're my only hope!!

 

[Byron]

Cutting directly to the help. Water change 70-80% volume at one time, each day, until nitrite is zero. You may save the fish, maybe not. Nitrite is deadly. If possible, this is the only time I recommend Prime as a conditioner because it temporarily detoxifies nitrite.

Never, never use any treatment for ich except heat. It is the safest, and it works. Lesson learned. Good luck.

 

[Aquarium Hobbyist Noob]

Cutting directly to the help. Water change 70-80% volume at one time, each day, until nitrite is zero. You may save the fish, maybe not. Nitrite is deadly. If possible, this is the only time I recommend Prime as a conditioner because it temporarily detoxifies nitrite.

Never, never use any treatment for ich except heat. It is the safest, and it works. Lesson learned. Good luck.

Byron,

Thank you for not verbally beating me up.

If I do a 70-80% water change, do you think enough of the cupramine be removed that the resulting chemical reaction when Prime is added won't be toxic to them? (Having done two 50% water changes prior)

Seachem website, and all information I have found online, says not to use Prime when/if using Cupramine. It's the only reason I haven't fallen back on that, my typical solution, and why I'm left unsure what to do to safely bring the nitrite levels down...

 

[Ellie Potts]

I agree with Byron
Sounds like you're doing everything you can now; no need for beating yourself up. At some point in the hobby most people end up with a horror story.
I would assume after another large water change, you'll be ok to use prime. I don't know how else you'd neutralize the water. But not sure

 

[TwoTankAmin]

DO NOT USE PRIME TO HELP WITH NITRITE!

I will offer another solution for nitrite, add salt. Very little salt goes a long way. For whatever reason your tank is going through a mini cycle. Until the nitrite bateria reproduce back to fill capacity, you will have nitrite. And it take up the 72 hours for nitrate to leave the system of fish once there is no more nitrite going in. Unless you have over 3 times the max reading on an API Nitrite kit, is wont stall the recycling and water changes will slow it.
https://www.fishforums.net/threads/rescuing-a-fish-in-cycle-gone-wild-part-il.433778/

Skip down to the section on SOME FACTS ABOUT NITRITE
One thing has me confused, you should have nitrate from the nitrite, even doing water changes which you should stop unless the nitrite level is over 16 ppm. So you may need to do diluted testing if your nitrite is "off the charts." How to do that is also detailed in the article.

You can remove Cupramine with carbon

 

[Aquarium Hobbyist Noob]

DO NOT USE PRIME TO HELP WITH NITRITE!

I will offer another solution for nitrite, add salt. Very little salt goes a long way. For whatever reason your tank is going through a mini cycle. Until the nitrite bateria reproduce back to fill capacity, you will have nitrite. And it take up the 72 hours for nitrate to leave the system of fish once there is no more nitrite going in. Unless you have over 3 times the max reading on an API Nitrite kit, is wont stall the recycling and water changes will slow it.
https://www.fishforums.net/threads/rescuing-a-fish-in-cycle-gone-wild-part-il.433778/

Skip down to the section on SOME FACTS ABOUT NITRITE
One thing has me confused, you should have nitrate from the nitrite, even doing water changes which you should stop unless the nitrite level is over 16 ppm. So you may need to do diluted testing if your nitrite is "off the charts." How to do that is also detailed in the article.

You can remove Cupramine with carbon

Thank you, thank you, THANK YOU!!!!

I like this option waaaay better. Way less stress for everyone involved.

I added the requisite 2.17 grams of salt, based on the calculations. Hopefully this stabilizes the fish.

I've added the beneficial bacteria starter and will basically keep adding it over the next week(s), like I'm starting up a brand new tank so those bacteria start doing their thing, since the copper wiped them out. (No water conditioners - our water isn't chlorinated)

I'll keep doing a 25% water change each day until the nitrite levels come down.
Hmmm... will need to do some figuring so the water I'm adding is the same salinity as the water I'm removing to keep the salt benefits working for the fish...

I re-measured today to do the calculations for adding salt.
Nitrite is at .75 ppm
Nitrate is now at 10 ppm (maybe I read the test too soon?)
Ammonia is between .25 and .5 (hard to discern the green)
But based on the free ammonia calculator, we're between .02 to .04 ppm for the N3.

I guess now I wait and watch while the salt starts to absorb and hopefully the water finishes cycling.

I did a head-count. Haven't lost anybody yet. They're hanging in there.

Thanks to everyone for helping us get set on the right path. You are all awesome!!

Re Cupramine and carbon... I do have carbon in my filter to help remove the cupramine. But they (seachem) also recommended a specific copper-absorbing filter/filler to pull the copper out faster. It's called cupri-sorb. It's got tiny beads of I-don't-know-what in it. I figure I'll use it as long as the copper is showing up in my testing (once the stupid copper test shows up... gosh I miss pre-covid delivery capabilities) and take it out when the copper is gone. Anything to get the copper out faster is good in my book.

 

[TwoTankAmin]

If you change the water, you lower the nitrite level and you need longer to fix the problem. if you use the chloride to block the nitrite from entering the level in the water should not matter until it jits over 16 ppm on an API style tes, At that point it will stall the cycle. Actually what happens if the bacteria we want do not do well in super high ammonia or nitrite, different ones colonize. You are not starting up a waste treatment plant you are setting up an aquarium.

Nitrite takes about 24 -48 hours to be out of the system in fish. If there is more nitrite in the water then it goes into the fish. So when you change 50% of the water all you do is to reduce the amount of nitrite going in and it stays there. Blocking the nitrite with the chloride in salt stops the nitrite from getting in and the amount in the water does not matter to the fish. It can to the cycle, however.

I have been cycling tanks for a few decades. I run my own bio-farm on and off as well. Nitrite is bad for fish plain and simple. We can block it. Ammonia (NH3) is highly toxic to fish. We cannot block it, so we have no option but to change water. Reducing it to a safe level can be done short term. but the solution to ammonia is bacteria. The way to protect fish from ammonia is a fishless cycle and from there good maintenance.

The way we deal with excess nitrate is water changes. Some of us have filters and substrate of lots of plants which can help with nitrate. But for the most part we change water. We do this for many other reasons besides nitrate in an established tank.

Carbon removes copper.
Copper is another story. For that I would run a large amount of carbon and change water. But SeaChem is very happy to take your money. I do not own a copper test. Never have either. I see no need for Cupramine to treat what it does, I have better less troublesome meds for these things that work as well or better, imo.

You could have used Aquari-Sol which is also "Soluble copper salts." All they suggest to do after treatment us to

Flubendazole 10 % powder

Best for eliminating Hydra. Treats protozoa wasting disease, serious treatment for Velvet, internal and external parasites, 1/4 teaspoon of 10 % powder treats about 20 gallons of water for most parasitic Protozoa. Eliminate Carbon filtration during treatment. Change most of the water after 10 days.
Will not harm plants, Prolonged use will kill most all snails. ........

The above med woks against Ich too.

However, forget all of the above and instead have a read here. it will give you a much better understanding of Ich and how to treat it. It is from the Univ. of Florida's Extension program for Aquaculture. They do not make any products, they do not sell things. They are a University which teaches how to deal with a lot of things fish related.
Ichthyophthirius multifiliis (White Spot) Infections in Fish