Good Water - Fish Dropping Like Flies

[BrittainT.Stephenson]

Hello everyone, first an introduction. I had fish from about the age of 7 though about 18... As far as I can remember the same 3 fish, 1 plant and somewhere between 1-1000 snails that invaded my tank, exploded in population and then all died leaving a graveyard of shells to decorate my 10 gallon (maybe 15) tank. This was years ago and I recently decided to pick up a new tank; however it's been going poorly. 
 
I'll start at the very beginning and i am going to struggle to remember is exorbitant detail in order to help everyone help me because I am at a loss.
 
Approximately July 10.
I go to petco and purchase a Fluval Spec V (5 gallon) http/www.petco.com/shop/en/petcostore/fluval-spec-v-aquarium-kit-in-black, some aquarium rocks, some aquarium sand, 4 plants, Omega 1 tropical pellets, API tap water conditioner. 
I go home wash my sand and rocks with water until it is rinsed, add it to my tank then fill my tank with water using the water conditioner as directed. 
 
 
Approximately July 13
Unbeknownst to me I foolishly pick up a Dwarf Guami, 3 guppies, and 2 amano shrimp. I did not know about the nitrogen cycle and the person that sold me the tank apparently didn't either or he would've known that I shouldn't have been buying fish. I am sure you can all guess what happened.
Less than 4 hours after adding fish I lose one amano shrimp, 2 hours after I lose the second. (No symptoms they are simply active then all of a sudden dead) I am assuming this is ammonia poisoning from an un-cycled tank. Shame on me.  Over the next 5 days or so I lose the next three guppies, I perform a few water changes here and there if I remember right and the guami carries on. All the guppies died with no symptoms either (unless you want to call staying near the top a symptom - I just assumed they never got comfortable) (Actually on second thought they did occasionally venture to the bottom and middle but not like in the store.) The one Guami is fine. 
 
July 20
Big green algae bloom - deal with mostly by scraping tank walls and vacuuming. (added aqueon algae remover didn't do anything.) 
 
July 27
After continuing to do water changes of approx 1 gallon every 4-5 days I manage to find time to go back to the store. I brought a sample and as I suspected my ammonia was high (probably would've been off the charts but I had since done many water changes) They reimburse me for my fish and I stock my tank with 1 more guami and 2 guppies, 1 shrimp 1 small nerite snail and a bristlenose. It is at this point that I learn about the nitrogen cycle. (Sigh*) The snail never moved after it was purchased so it either died the second it touched my water or before it made it home. The shrimp died again in hours. 2 days later both guppies died overnight. 
 
Added DrTims Live nitrifying bacteria
 
I am left with 2 guami and 1 bristlenose for maybe 3 weeks. I think finally this whole terrible ordeal is over, the bristlenose is slowly but surely battling the algae and the guamis while the sorta just lazily swim around are eating and look healthy. (You can tell that one of them has really seen some poop though)
 
Then all of a sudden a guami dies. 
The next day the other dies.
 
At this point and previously I am doing a water change every 4 days of 1 gallon. (making sure temp is good, and it is conditioned)
 
So now we have one Bristle nose (Batman) and he's cool but he needs some friends I take the water (mind you right after the guamis die) get it tested and it is very good. the only thing off is it's like a 7.1 for pH but that shouldn't really matter. So I get two platy's 
 
They are small and they are pretty so I think okay, hardy fish, smaller than the guamis so less bioload on what is testing as ideal water conditions. When I added them (20 minutes after letting them acclimate to the temp) to the tank though they sorta just swam around the bottom, or mostly just sat on the bottom. They never ate or acted interested in food. Woke up to two dead platys and a dead bristlenose 3 days later. 
 
 
 
Very upset I went back in with water and it tested well yet again, ammonia, nitrates, nitrites, pH, hardness, chlorides, all good. I ranted about everything with another associate. He has a 5 gallon. What he told me to do was take the tank water level way low (Not entirely empty, clean all my plants to help remove the blue algae and even mentioned getting my tank temp down to help control the algae and to stock with spring water. 
 
So that Friday I went home drained the tank down to about 20% water, refilled with conditioned tap water drained again (had to do it twice to get all the algae cleaned) then added 1 gallon spring water. (this should leave us with 1 part bottled spring water and 1 part conditioned tap water.) I removed the plants and cleaned them thoroughly with my hands rubbing all the algae off. Let them sit in separate tap water for a day. Until I was satisfied that algae had subsided. Saturday I added my plants and a 1 gallon *Frozen* jug of water just to keep temps down and I added a 1 gallon liquid to the tank keeping the tank in the low 50s F for 5 days until I was satisfied that the algae was sorta under control. Also add a little more Dr.Tims nitrifying bacteria to ensure everything is still good and cycled.
 
Wait a day for temps to rise to normal. My tanks temp fluctuates 75-78 maybe dropping to 73 on the worst nights (I sleep with open windows)
 
Friday again I go in with water. Which obviously checks out as perfect and I brainstorm about what to put in. --- Finally the associate has a good idea. "Hey you know I could just give you a couple feeder fish until you know what you want" 
 
I think this is a great idea, I'll have two little test dummies. 
 
So I get two comets or whatever they are called let them acclimate for 20 minutes to the temp cut open the bag to add all the water and the fish to the tank. They immediately go chill at the bottom and aren't too active. (Temp is 76) 
They are dead the next morning. 
1 week later (Yesterday) I do the exact same thing perfect water, I haven't done any changes in the past week this time. When I added them they behaved similarly to the others hanging out on the bottom, not swimming much. Today when I came home they seemed okay but after about a total of 20 hours in tank the first one is dead. The second was swimming like it was drunk bumping into stuff doing roles for no reason. They never ate anything and now about 26 hours after introduction to the tank they are both dead. 
 
I am at a loss, the store is at a loss. 
Please please please help. 

 

[BrittainT.Stephenson]

Sorry to double post but if you think it might help I took some pretty Hi-res photos of my goldfish casualty. I could upload.

 

[**sarahp**]

Hi there

  to the forum
 
I have a few comments about what might be going wrong but there will be others with much more experience who can help you more.
 
Firstly I dont know much about Dr Tims (I've seen others use his ammonia for fishless cycling) but as far as I'm aware there isn't a bottle of anything that can cycle you tank for you.  So by putting fish in the tank you are doing a "fish in cycle" which is not all that great for fish unless you have LOADS of live plants and very low fish load. 
 
Which brings me to your second problem - I don't think 5 gallons is big enough for any of the fish your local shop sold to you.  TBH I think 5 gallons is ok for a betta but that's about it.  Don't put a betta in there until it's cycled - it will die!  Have a look at the tabs across the top of this site one of them says cycling a tank - read the stickies in there.  You say you "found out about the nitrogen cycle" but that sounds a bit vague to me - I'm not sure you fully understand the process of ammonia - nitrIte - nitrAte.
 
I think the reason your fish died was ammonia and/or nitrite poisoning.  The water changes you were doing were too small and too infrequent.  If you have ammonia or nitrite in the water you have to do 50-75% water changes every day.  The fish are effectively swimming in poison and you need to keep diluting it with water changes.  A bit like us being in an airtight shipping container with no oxygen exchange - sooner or later were going to notice that we don't feel great! 
 
The other thing that I recommend you do is get yorself an API test kit.  The problem with taking your water to someone else to get it checked you can't be sure that they've done it right and while your cycling a tank you need to test often to see what's going on.  Also if you can give us all your water readings when you post a problem it make it easier to suggest possible causes.
 
Like I say others will be along probably with more help but for now I think you need to research fishless cycling and forget putiing fish in until ....I've just realised - you didn't mention a filter.  Do you have a filter on your tank???  You can't cycle a tank without a filter.... just checked it has an inbuilt filter - phew !  So read as much as you can about cycling a tank before you buy anymore fish - HTH

 

[NickAu]

 
Which brings me to your second problem - I don't think 5 gallons is big enough for any of the fish your local shop sold to you.  TBH I think 5 gallons is ok for a betta but that's about it.

Agreed,
 
Bn's are poop machines and a 5 gallon is way to small for them.

 

[BrittainT.Stephenson]

Yea I figured the tank wasn't properly cycled and am pretty upset at my local shop  for letting me make that mistake. 
 
 
The tank should be cycled by now though right? it's been running for 10 weeks. 
 
Also the little comet feeder fish I reported dead last night isn't actually dead. He was floating up at the filter intake when I said that so I figured it'd be a matter of hours. I removed him and just added him to one of kitchen mixing bowls (About a gallon) and tap water - conditioned, he perked right up. 

 

[**sarahp**]

The tank should be cycled by now though right? it's been running for 10 weeks. 

 
Not necessarily - time is not the greatest indicator as to whether a tank is cycled or not - water readings are.  You need to get an API test kit and read about fishless cycling ie adding ammonia from a bottle to mimic fish poop so that you don't have real live fishes swimming in poison.
 
 

Also the little comet feeder fish I reported dead last night isn't actually dead. He was floating up at the filter intake when I said that so I figured it'd be a matter of hours. I removed him and just added him to one of kitchen mixing bowls (About a gallon) and tap water - conditioned, he perked right up. 

 
Glad he's not dead but tbh I think you need to take him back to the shop.  He is really not suitable for your tank even if you weren't having these problems.

 

[StevenF]

Could you send us the actual test numbers for your water (tap water and tank water).  Quite often we hear Ammonia is fine but once we get the numbers we find it is very high.  Many times people get there ammonia, nitrite, and nitrate number mixed up or read the PH incorrectly believing it is high when it is actually very low.  Also sometimes the tap water has problems that should be addressed before adding more fish. 
 
Also 1 gallon a week is a little low when you are potentially fighting ammonia.  I typically do a 50% water change once a week.  Also for a 5 gallon take do not buy any fish, shrimp, or snails until we know for sure it is cycled.  Smaller tanks are more sensitive to stocking and overfeeding and ammonia levels can spike very high very fast.  When the tank is ready follow the rule of one inch per gallon.  which for a 5 gallon tank means you need to find the smallest fish.  For example a neon tetra is about 1 inch long and you could put 5 in the tank.  But also pay attention to minimum stocking level recommendations.  For the tetra that is 6.  Which would put you at or a little over the limit.  There are smaller fish out there but they are harder to find. One nerite snail would also be a good choice for cleaning the substrate and the walls of the tank.  Shrimp are also another good idea.  Your tank can easily handle a lot of cherry shrimp.  Plants are also a good idea since they will feed on the nitorgen in the water.

 

[BrittainT.Stephenson]

Could you send us the actual test numbers for your water (tap water and tank water).  Quite often we hear Ammonia is fine but once we get the numbers we find it is very high.  Many times people get there ammonia, nitrite, and nitrate number mixed up or read the PH incorrectly believing it is high when it is actually very low.  Also sometimes the tap water has problems that should be addressed before adding more fish. 
 
Also 1 gallon a week is a little low when you are potentially fighting ammonia.  I typically do a 50% water change once a week.  Also for a 5 gallon take do not buy any fish, shrimp, or snails until we know for sure it is cycled.  Smaller tanks are more sensitive to stocking and overfeeding and ammonia levels can spike very high very fast.  When the tank is ready follow the rule of one inch per gallon.  which for a 5 gallon tank means you need to find the smallest fish.  For example a neon tetra is about 1 inch long and you could put 5 in the tank.  But also pay attention to minimum stocking level recommendations.  For the tetra that is 6.  Which would put you at or a little over the limit.  There are smaller fish out there but they are harder to find. One nerite snail would also be a good choice for cleaning the substrate and the walls of the tank.  Shrimp are also another good idea.  Your tank can easily handle a lot of cherry shrimp.  Plants are also a good idea since they will feed on the nitorgen in the water.

Thanks for all the replies, and so fast you guys are great. My day off is wednesday, I'll buy an API kit then. Just to add some some info and answer some questions I've been using test strip, also so has the petstore. Originally ammmonia was high around 4ppm that made sense since over stocking and all the horrible things I now know about. 
 
Currently it is reading under 0-.25 ppm. Essentially no reaction on the strip. No photos of that one.
https/dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/1843211/Water%20test.png
There's a link to a photo of the others nitriate/ites/chlor etc, I tried to match lighting as best I could.
 
I think it looks good.
 
Also yes 4 different plants. 
1 cryptocoryne 1 dracaena 1 syngonium 1 spathiphyllum 
 
This morning i moved my goldfish back into the 5 gallon - he's doing fine though lethargic. 
 
PS: Also, fish crazy why isn't my goldfish good for the tank (assuming I wasn't having other issues)?? He's so little.

 

[Mrscmurray]

 
PS: Also, fish crazy why isn't my goldfish good for the tank (assuming I wasn't having other issues)?? He's so little.

Because comets have a massive bioload n grow to 36cm long.

 

[**sarahp**]

This morning i moved my goldfish back into the 5 gallon - he's doing fine though lethargic. 
 
PS: Also, fish crazy why isn't my goldfish good for the tank (assuming I wasn't having other issues)?? He's so little.
 

 
The lethatrgy is a reaction to what he's been through - you must do large (75% min) and regular (daily at least) water changes - gold fish are poop machines - they produce LOTS of waste!
 
As Mrsmurry says - adult comets are huge and having him in a small tank for even a short while will stunt his growth and make him ill.  You hear people say "fish only grow to the size of their tank"  which is kinda true and kinda not.  The way it was described to me is that the skeleton will be stunted by the size of the tank - so essentially growing to the size of the tank but not a great thing to aim for!  However, the internal organs will attempt to grow to normal size so will be squished up.  There is no way that a fish that has grown like that is going to be happy or healthly.  You would't put a Great Dane puppy in a crate designed for a Chihuahua.

 

[StevenF]

 
Thanks for all the replies, and so fast you guys are great. My day off is wednesday, I'll buy an API kit then. Just to add some some info and answer some questions I've been using test strip, also so has the petstore. Originally ammmonia was high around 4ppm that made sense since over stocking and all the horrible things I now know about. 
 
Currently it is reading under 0-.25 ppm. Essentially no reaction on the strip. No photos of that one.

the test strips (tetra 6 in 1_ are not bad.  I have found them to be accurate.    However they don't test for ammonia.  So where are you getting the 0-0.25 reading from? So all you need is an ammonia test. I would not recommend the tetra ammonia strips. I find them hard to read accurately.  API does make a decent ammonia test kit that can be purchased individually or as a kit with PH, nitrite, and nitrate, and ammonia tests.
 
Your photo of the test strips is impossible to read due to the camera flash firing and distorting the colors.  idealy the strips should be read while standing next to a window.  Interior lights tend to distort colors slightly while outdoor light doesn't.  What do you read when you look at the strip (provide the numbers).

 

[BrittainT.Stephenson]

I got the ammonia reading from a tetra ammonia strip they gave me a couple for free at the store. All out now and didn't feel like digging the used on out of the trash for a pic.
 
Nitrate is probably 10-20 mg/L
 
Nitrite is 0 mg/L
 
Hardness is probably about 100 GH
 
Chlorine is 0 mg/L
 
Alkalinity is about 80ppm ish.. 
 
pH is maybe 7.4 tops. 
 
Also ordered a API testkit hopefully will be here Wednesday.
 
I'll do big water changes daily until then 

 

[StevenF]

The issue I have with the ammonia test strips is that after exposure to ammonia free water they will slowly start to change.  Therefore if you don't read them right away you could get a false possitive.  However if you water does have ammonia the color will change quickly.  The other thing I don't like is the color is a granular green which I find harder to match with the chart.    I recently had the opertunity to compare the strips to a very accurate Hanna Color I meter.  When the strips were reading 1ppm the meter was reading 1.3ppm. Later when the ammonia level had dropped the strip color was between near the bottom of the scale and it looked like it was about 0.3ppm.  The meter was however 0.02ppm.  
 
Given all of that you might have been OK when you used the strips to check for ammonia.  However get the API test kit and confirm the ammonia reading before you do anything.

 

[BrittainT.Stephenson]

Test kit is here!
 
And I found my issue, though it's the last thing I would've expected and not really sure what to do to fix it. 
 
My ammonia was under .25ppm
Nitrite was under .25 ppm
Nitrate was was about 0 ppm
 
However my pH tested at about 8.2 
 
I'm not really sure how this happened or what to do to avoid it.