Foggy Water

[SuperColey1]

i'll try and take some pics tonight of the plants. the plant is going brown i could not find on the link you posted. (they are all for fresh water tanks). looking again they very similar to the ones on the right of your tank at the back in your first pics.

Tropical is freshwater

Check on this one to see if it is non aquatic:
http/www.plantgeek.net/plantguide_list.php?category=11

The plant at the back right is a Java fern. If yours is one of these it would take months to go totally brown!! Its one of the recognised 'hard to kill' plants. in that even thuogh sometimes it starts deteriorating getting holey and getting brown bits it keeps plugging away and putting out new leaves and 'plantlets'

AC

 

[Curiosity101]

AC - Wouldn't you say that a tank with plants in, and a planted tank. Are two very different things?

IMO I was advising the OP on a tank with plants in. Not a planted tank. I really don't think suggesting to a new keeper that they base their fishes health on plants, rather than an established bacterial colony in the filter is the best way to go.
Plain n simple.

I'm fully aware of how you would treat a planted tank, and the reasons and understanding behind why they aren't cycled. I get it...really.

But in most peoples set-ups (people with a tank that has plants... and not a planted tank). The filter does cycle along side the plants, as when it dies the owners end up with ammonia sky rocketing.
If the OP leaves the tank as is following your suggestions, I believe they would end up in a situation where they have no bacterial colony available at all. And so when the day for fish being added comes, the plants will not be sufficient to keep the levels down.

Go to the beginners section and read through all the people who have fishless cycled their tanks then added plants, then tell me how many have experienced such extreme die back that they even registered a reading on the test kit.
Yes there will be some die back of the filter, but this will be gradual, and as the bacteria die they also release excess ammonia, but the plants or remaining bacteria will take take this in almost instantly.
It reaches a steady balance over time, no big spikes, no big issues.

 

[SuperColey1]

AC - Wouldn't you say that a tank with plants in, and a planted tank. Are two very different things?

I definately would but she said she had 50% and now 75% coverage. That to me is most definately planted in both cases.

IMO I was advising the OP on a tank with plants in. Not a planted tank. I really don't think suggesting to a new keeper that they base their fishes health on plants, rather than an established bacterial colony in the filter is the best way to go.
Plain n simple.

I understand your reasoning but I would tend to disagree. Creating a colony and then intentionally starving it could cause more problems than just fishless cycling. In this particular case; no fish and nothing to argue over There is no livestock to kill

I'm fully aware of how you would treat a planted tank, and the reasons and understanding behind why they aren't cycled. I get it...really.

But in most peoples set-ups (people with a tank that has plants... and not a planted tank). The filter does cycle along side the plants, as when it dies the owners end up with ammonia sky rocketing.

But the tank was 50 and now 100% planted! The amount a filter cycles with plants with no ferts is going to be tiny. Not much at all.

If the OP leaves the tank as is following your suggestions, I believe they would end up in a situation where they have no bacterial colony available at all. And so when the day for fish being added comes, the plants will not be sufficient to keep the levels down.

She/he has no livestock. When I start up I plant, fill up turn filter on, wait for temperture then acclimitise.

I recently ditched my noisy tetratec and bought an Eheim. Rinse the new Eheim's new media and straight in. The old media went straight in the bin. So a fresh filter on a stocked tank. No mature media at all. No problems or deaths!!! I wouldn't do this on a non planted tank!!!

Go to the beginners section and read through all the people who have fishless cycled their tanks then added plants, then tell me how many have experienced such extreme die back that they even registered a reading on the test kit.
Yes there will be some die back of the filter, but this will be gradual, and as the bacteria die they also release excess ammonia, but the plants or remaining bacteria will take take this in almost instantly.
It reaches a steady balance over time, no big spikes, no big issues.

But what you are suggesting is a contradiction. They suffer an extreme die back. Is that nothing to do with the fact you have provided them competition for the goodies? If there is no competition they get the goodies. N is the most heavily consumed nutrient we add. To provide deliberate competition at the beginning makes no sense to me. Most especially when there are no fish to worry about. Even that wouldn't worry me.

Sorry we disagree but then thats life Always 2 sides to a story.

AC

 

[jonnyuk]

the fact that i kept some of the established water and also kept the established filter in this water, won't this mean i already have some kind of bacterial eco system in my tank?

i put some filter floss in my second filter last night, spent an hour getting rid of some dead/rotting leaves and the tank is clear this morning. its only because the sides of the tank are dirty that it does not look clear.

there is a small plant bottom left that was in the foreground, most of this died so i replaced it with the what's in the foreground now just to get the tank going. my aquascape has kinda gone out of the window now though!

here is a pic of one plant that does not look too good, does it look like its dying. i have rubbed the leaves abit more and some of the brown is substrate but i also had to pull allot of dead leaves off it.

put some plant food as suggested too last night (kn03 stuff)

thanks

 

[Curiosity101]

But the tank was 50 and now 100% planted! The amount a filter cycles with plants with no ferts is going to be tiny. Not much at all.

^^ That makes all the difference, if it is indeed so well planted then yes I can definitely see your point. But I totally missed the OP mentioning that further up.

And even having said that, I still would want to stress that the OP should have a good liquid based test kit and a good bottle of water conditioner handy.

Over the next few weeks if the plants are establish well then AC's (why AC btw and not SC?) advice is spot on. Just don't become entirely complacent and presume the plants are handling the ammonia, make sure they're handling it by testing, then sit back and enjoy

 

[SuperColey1]

And even having said that, I still would want to stress that the OP should have a good liquid based test kit and a good bottle of water conditioner handy.

Yes a newbie whether planted or not should start with a test kit. Not to base plant needs on but just to get used to what is happening.

Notice I also stop short of suggesting to a newbie to stop water changes on a non planted tank. Whilst there is no problem I think there is a danger when you haven't yet 'practically' understood what happens in a fish tank

why AC btw and not SC?

Supercoley1 is my 'tag name'. Came from poker years ago. A C are my initials

Just don't become entirely complacent and presume the plants are handling the ammonia, make sure they're handling it by testing.

Indeed true. Just because I can start a tank and break the rules doesn't mean anyone else can. Even if they are experienced. It can be down just to luck or the right situation but as all my scapes are absolutely stuffed with plants I have much more lee-way to start with.

Add to that the mulm is aded before the substrate then I already have a starter of bacteria in the substrate

As for the old media old water then yes the media may[/] have some bacteria within it. It depends really. If it was in flowing water (bacteria need O) then it will be able to survive if there is also ammonia present in the water it sits in. If we're talking a couple of days in plain water it should have something.

Even if it hasn't it shouldn't be a worry even on a non planted tank. Bacteria colonise very very fast and with water changes daily the problem is negated somewhat.

Basically whilst my advice above may worry some it is still a watered down version of what I would do myself. I leave out all the really risky bits

AC

 

[Curiosity101]

Bacteria colonise very very fast

Only if there is an existing colony of a reasonable size to begin with (and even then I'm not implying they replicate faster, just that the physical number replicated each time is higher). Bacterial replication takes a set length of time to complete, with optimum conditions they will double in number after every replication, but with no reasonable starting colony it'll take quite some time for the bacteria to colonise enough to start making a dent on any free ammonia (enough that you would see any movement via a test kit).
You're talking 2 weeks minimum normally to even see 0.5ppm shift in the beginning...
Simple fact is, with no ammonia source over the next couple of months the bacteria will be pretty much non existant (no more established that in normal water anyways). So if for some reason the plants can't cope with the bioload of the first introduction of fish, you're looking at 2 weeks before you see the filter bacs kick in to start consuming any measurable amount of excess ammonia. Then you have the lag for nitrites...

Basically whilst my advice above may worry some it is still a watered down version of what I would do myself. I leave out all the really risky bits

Your advice doesn't bother me in the slightest with regards to your own tank as there will be bits n pieces left out of your advice that you know to follow. Things to look out for such as warning signs etc. Just general experience having done it many times before.

The only thing that ever worries me when people from the planted section advice new keepers is that they presume too much and it can lead people into problems. Not cause it can't work for new keepers (I'm not trying to say new keeper = unable to follow advice), just that there are bits people forget to mention to new keepers that they would need to know.
So they are following the advice exactly but then find fish/plants dying and are at a loss as to why etc etc or how to rectify it.

 

[jonnyuk]

The only thing that ever worries me when people from the planted section advice new keepers is that they presume too much and it can lead people into problems. Not cause it can't work for new keepers (I'm not trying to say new keeper = unable to follow advice), just that there are bits people forget to mention to new keepers that they would need to know.
So they are following the advice exactly but then find fish/plants dying and are at a loss as to why etc etc or how to rectify it.

that is a problem for newbies, i'm sure some of plants are dying (by the fact i've pulled dead ones out and some have brown decaying leaves). as to why this may be that case and how to fix it i don't know.

To much ammonia, not even nutrients in the water, water to cold/to hot. not enough c02, not even water movement, to much/to little light?

i'm guessing its got to be either to much ammonia or nutrients?

 

[SuperColey1]

i'm guessing its got to be either to much ammonia or nutrients?

If you have too much ammonia then you have enough nitrate and you have all the rest in the substrate which will sowly leech iotself into the water column anyway. So without cycling we already can rule out nutrients (to a degree) With no fish there should be no problem needing to get any ammonia spike removed instantly.

However if you do have a test kit let us have some figures. Ph, Ammonia, Nitrite and nitrate. Let us just see what your 'stats' are or at least roughly from the test kits 'results' what is happening.

If your temp is anywhere from abient to 30 the plants will do fine.

not enough c02

You are low light and lo-tec therefore you are using equilibrium CO2 where CO2 naturally enters the water at the surface just as O does. As a plant uses CO2 then equilibrium continues, more enters. It is a natural gaseous exchange and the CO2 level is a natural level.

not even water movement

Shouldn't be a major problem in a lo tec tank the speed is much much slower than hi tec and therefore less critical to get nutrient and C pushed to every corner as consistently as possible. If oyu have a filter running in/on a lo tec tank then this should be fine. However you can 'tinker' with its position to see what is happening.

to much/to little light

Within reason there is no such thing. Planted tanks existed when light was very poor (circa 0.2WPG of a flourescent) and the exist now with foolish people using huge amounts of light. Of course there is a level you can reach (0.5+) where the plants are going to be a little better off than being in almost darkness but as long as you have light the plant grows. Just grows slower with less light and therefore also needs less nutrient and C.

It could well be that you have some non aquatics. Post up a picture and let the others take a look. I am not much good when it comes to Iding. Don't resize the pic just put it on and then let the forum resize it, then we cansouble click it and get a good look

AC

 

[jonnyuk]

i took some readings last night from my tank and my tap water.

Tank Tap Water

PH 8 7.4 > 7.6
Ammonia 0 0.25
Nitrite 0 0
Nitrate 0 0 > 5

the plants do look abit better. i cleaned more substrate particules off them last night. my friend (who started this thread) is getting rid of his fish, so i'm gonna take his two shrimp. my brother also has some guppy fry, thinking of taking a couple of these too. I plan on taking another reading early next week, if its the same do think it will be ok to add these fry/shrimp next week.

 

[SuperColey1]

i took some readings last night from my tank and my tap water.

Tank Tap Water

PH 8 7.4 > 7.6
Ammonia 0 0.25
Nitrite 0 0
Nitrate 0 0 > 5

Guppys are ver hardy. shrimp not so much.

.25 ammonia is not much BUT it shouldn't be registering for a 'safe' amount. should be too little to notice a changea of colour.

Nitrates are registering while nitrites are 0 which suggests that you are pretty close anyway although I would've expected a low nitrite reading if the filter is cycling.

i.e. with ammonia registering then nitrite should be registering too for you to reach nitrates. The nitrates reading is pretty likely to be OK. I would guess that the 0-5ppm is actually a residual from the tap water plus some that came from the substrate rather than the filter doing anything.

Check again each day. It may be that I was right and the 'cycle' isn'#t happening. Just that the plants are taking the ammonia, nitrites aren't being produced etc.

AC

 

[jonnyuk]

.25 ammonia is not much BUT it shouldn't be registering for a 'safe' amount. should be too little to notice a changea of colour

my ammonia is 0. my last post was meant to be in a table format but it does'nt look like it. these are the actual values in a more readable format

Tank Water

PH 8
Ammonia 0
Nitrite 0
Nitrate 0

tap water
PH 7.4 > 7.6
Ammonia 0.25
Nitrite 0
Nitrate 0 > 5

do the above reading make any differnce from your last comments? i have a fair amount of rotting plants that i need to get rid of now.

on a side note i spotted 3 little fry swimmning low in the tank tonight. when i bought my tank it came with aload of fish and fry. i gave these to my brother but there must of been a few we missed in the transfer. they are really small, maybe 3-4 mil tops and they have no colour yet.

there was me going mad with vac etc. be interesting to see if they surivve now.

 

[SuperColey1]

.25 ammonia is not much BUT it shouldn't be registering for a 'safe' amount. should be too little to notice a changea of colour

my ammonia is 0. my last post was meant to be in a table format but it does'nt look like it. these are the actual values in a more readable format

Tank Water

PH 8
Ammonia 0
Nitrite 0
Nitrate 0

tap water
PH 7.4 > 7.6
Ammonia 0.25
Nitrite 0
Nitrate 0 > 5

do the above reading make any differnce from your last comments? i have a fair amount of rotting plants that i need to get rid of now.

on a side note i spotted 3 little fry swimmning low in the tank tonight. when i bought my tank it came with aload of fish and fry. i gave these to my brother but there must of been a few we missed in the transfer. they are really small, maybe 3-4 mil tops and they have no colour yet.

there was me going mad with vac etc. be interesting to see if they surivve now.

Your test kits are wrong or you're not matching the colours up. Problem with these kits. Why I don't use any. lol. Theres no way your tap is 0-5ppm 10-20 maybe. And therefore it concurs that if you put tap water into your tank the tank has nitrates too!!!

If you really want to test you should calibate them:

http/www.barrreport.com/showthread.php/3263-How-to-make-NO3-and-PO4-reference-solutions(repost-from-Left-C)?highlight=calibrate+test

For example my drinking water report (you can access these by going to your water companies website and somewhere there will be a postocde search where you can get the detailed report)

For 2010 (mine not yours. lol) there have been 3 tests. The average was:
Nitrate - 12.2ppm
Ammonium - 0.007ppm
nitrite - 0.005ppm

Basically there is no way you should have a registerable amount of ammonia in your drinking water. Not with a hobby kit. There will be more in the tank from fish wee than the drinking water. Same should be for nitrite and nitrate realy although in the tank the nitrate, nitrite and ammonia iwould be used by the plants. they are all N sources.

If the fry survive in the water you aint got a problem. Fry will be more sensitive (although still being guppies they may be able to swim in effluent. lol). Keep an eye on them.

 

[Curiosity101]

Your test kits are wrong or you're not matching the colours up. Problem with these kits. Why I don't use any. lol. Theres no way your tap is 0-5ppm 10-20 maybe. And therefore it concurs that if you put tap water into your tank the tank has nitrates too!!!

That's a nice sweeping statement AC. Clearly you have lived in every part of the country and sampled from pretty much every water board?

My local water supply is

0.0093ppm Nitrite
2.5979ppm Nitrate

I know for sure that plenty of areas have super low nitrates. It just depends what area you're from and where your water is held.
Mine comes from a resevoir so is very very very soft and relatively free of 'impurities' as it is obviously largely made up of rainwater and doesn't run down many mineral rich hills.

 

[SuperColey1]

Well yes sweeping generalisation. and indeed seems that your nitrates are much lower than I would've expected. However you still had ammonia registering in your water. What does the report say for ammonia? I would gues similar to the nitrite reading.

So your test kit was right to show nitrate is 0-5. Thats one down. lol I shall have to learn not generalise.

Following from that the nitrate reading in your tank at 0 can be seen from 2 directions.

Some will say No the tank should be higher where I would say it is right because with only 2ppm from the tap and a bit more from natural occurence within the tank that the plants have grabbed it.

If the ammonia is indeed registering form the tap yet not from the tank you have the answer. I was right in the above posts. The plants are using the nitrate and ammonia within the tank.

Sorry for the generalisation. My biggest weakness I'm afraid.

AC