Flipping Lfs Killed My Tank

[rowdyburns21]

if the ammonia and nitrite are reading zero then you gota think that some chemical of some sort has been put in, like other people have said, for all fish to die in twenty four hours thats crazy, sorry about your losses.

 

[rarefish]

rarefish can i ask how i managed to over stock a 100litre tank with 5 tiny tetra and 6 herleys? from what i have read on here people add lot more to a 100litre than that! infct they just add more than that to a 5 gallon tank!!!! -deedles

No need to get testy here deedles. I clearly explained what I meant: there were not enough bacteria. But that's my theory. Something such as a chemical could have gotten into the tank. It could be anything. Good luck.

 

[DarkEntity]

The shop is only obliged to replace their fish which you bought, this is very dependant on their returns policy. If it were me i don't think i would replace your other fish as they have no proof there wasn't something wring with them in the first place. I'll be your word against theirs. Id take their fish back with a water sample and see how it goes.

My concern is that all the fish died overnight so there is no way id put anything back in that tank. Id be worried it was something like a toxin etc that would kill the replacements also. If it were me, i would gut the tank and start again.

On a side note, to say the "LFS killed my fish" inst really truthful as you bought them, and you put them straight into your tank, they didnt force you not to quarantine them or test their water prior to adding to your tank. You are also partly to blame if not more so than the shop.

 

[deedles]

i did test my water prior as i said in the first post also as i said i am not going to put anything back in that tank untill it is thoroughly cleaned and disinfected darkentity and as for being test i just simply asked how you felt that 11 fish might have been over stocked

 

[jollysue]

I don't think anyone meant to offend you, deedles. Sometimes I must admit that I skim threads and miss things, just as I did with your 10-20% weekly water changes, only seeing the 50% once every 8 weeks. Some posters are more matter of fact and some are more sensitive. I think rarefish did more than many by saying he wasn't pointing fingers.

He was suggesting that you may have put too many new fish in at once and the bacteria was insufficient to handle the new load--this does happen. I don't think it was the case in your tank though. It takes more than 24 hours for a stable tank to go bottomed out toxic in a case like that.

In addition he is in the States and ltr tanks are not used here. Maybe he like me hasn't a clue without doing some pen and paper calculating. He may say I am nuts, and he has a 100 x 100 ltr tanks though! And I had a hard time searching out the tank size as it was buried in a long paragraph--that is one of the first things usually checked.

Anyway the point is no one was meaning to hurt your feelings. We are doing the best we can to help figure out the problem. It is hard to express attitude when writing. Sometimes a smiley will do it, but even that comes off as sarcasm sometimes.

Everyone offers some input and an idea or two and they get sorted through to find the best rational cause.

I think I understand that you were upset at losing your fish and lashed out at the lps. It is understandable. The real lesson here is quarantine your new fish. Second, look for a possible toxin source. Is there anyone who could have put anything in the tank other than you? Did you put anything in the tank new other than the new fish?

 

[rarefish]

I think rarefish did more than many by saying he wasn't pointing fingers. -jollysue

rarefish has the XX chromosome, in other words, I'm female !

Everyone offers some input and an idea or two and they get sorted through to find the best rational cause. -jollysue

Exactly . We are trying to help you out deedles. Definitely look into everything that could have gotten into the tank like jollysue said. Good luck!

 

[-germ-]

if the ammonia and nitrite are reading zero then you gota think that some chemical of some sort has been put in, like other people have said, for all fish to die in twenty four hours thats crazy, sorry about your losses.

Everyone is assuming an additional chemical to the tank, personally i think this assumption is going down the wrong route, as i attempted to point out it is not unknown for a bacterial illness to wipe out everything in a tank, as i said last (before frustratedly removing my post) night it has happened to me.
I am by no means suggesting ruling out an accidental chemical addition.
But the fact that the fish died so rapidly after the introduction of new fish, to me, certainly suggest introduction of a serious illness with a toxic spike being fairly unlikely to kill off every fish considering the stocking level.
As for incubation times, i know nothing about them, i know some illnesses can incubate in less than 24hours (when talking about humans) although i can't be specific with fish.
I'd always thought that bacteria were constantly present in the aquarium but immuno suppression more often than not led to them taking hold?
Maybe the introduction of the fish in some way (small spike, chasing due to territory re-establishment, nipping etc) resulted in stress and therefore an all ready present but suppressed illness taking its opportunity?
Please do correct me if i am wrong.

 

[Tommo]

I dont think a disease was too blame (a couple hours over night to go from perfect to dead is just to quick)

I'd guess a technical malfunction

 

[jollysue]

Hi germ! I am not disease specialist at all. I'm sorry if I was part of your frustration.

I have never had a whole tank crash at once overnight. When I have heard of it from others previously it was from tank conditions. My concept of incubation is that the incubation takes place in the body. Of course there are human bacteria and viral infections that seem to happen overnight--food contamination comes to mind most readily, causing gastro-instestinal sickness. These often are intensified or even the result of toxins released by the bacteria and virus. In those cases the bacteria rapidly increase due to advantagous conditions and then infect the individual, also toxins are released as I memtioned.

I am thinking outloud here. Hoping to work together.

I did once have a shipment of stressed fish that when added to a tank of more sensitive fish but stable fish caused a crash of sorts, but it did not happen all over night and the tank recovered.

 

[-germ-]

Replying to Tommo;
1)It doesn't appear to have taken place in a 'couple of hours,' the OP stated one died after 4 hours, awake at this point is the assumption i take from the wording, then they went to sleep, 8 hours is average; making 12.Plus they never specified if they went to sleep immediately after the death, only that when they woke up, all fish were dead. Yes/no/maybe?
2)Hypoxia is extremely rare, particularly with such small fish.....
3)It would be lcky (for want of a better word) for a technical malfuntion eg. filter stoppage to have taken place on the introduction of new fish, and then corrected itself by the morning?
4)The fact a fish had died upon introduction also points to something not neccesarily being right with the fish that were added.....

I'm by no means jumping to conclusions about the cause, but personally i see systematic illness as the most likely, or if a water change was performed (can't check) an issue with the water supply.....

 

[jollysue]

Well, back to The Wolf's post:

1) systemic bacterial infection
2) toxin

I would simply encourage the op to consider any posible toxin that could have been introduced. I'm not advocating a definative answer.

What is "systemic bacterial infection" exactly?

 

[-germ-]

Sue, i'll find out exactly tomorrow i have a pathologist in the family; i can't work out from the few bits i've just looked at on the matter whether incubation applies soley to the time a bacteria takes to affect its host, upon the hosts introduction to the bacteria. Or if a bacteria may be incubated in its environment and as such can take effect from that point to a host upon introduction.
Confused.

 

[tttnjfttt]

From the original post, I believe that the fish died within 12-18 hours. That means a disease has to infect, incubate (grow to the point of visible symptoms) and kill a fish. Also, I think it is safe to assume the fish came home looking healthy, or was incubating the disease. This leads to the question of what was going on at the store? Something this lethal would also be infecting the fish at the LPS, and some of those fish should have been infected, dead, or dying as well.

Now consider how effective *most* LFS/LPS are at removing dead fish from their tanks. The odds of the original poster walking in right after the dead fish were removed would be slim to none. Also, I think there would be signs of sick or dying fish in the LPS tanks. Even newbies would avoid tanks with many dead or dying fish in it.

This is why I support a toxin being introduced into the tank.

 

[jollysue]

That would be great, germ! Really good info to have. I do have some knowledge of gasto intestinal infections in humans from working in a group home. That can happen overnight and food poisoning can kill rapidly. But that often includes toxins in the food from bacterial elimination (toxin elimination from the bacteria and also if the bacteria are killed such as from cooking.)

haha something I googled repeatedly trying to prove to stubborn teammates the proper handling and storage of food, especially after a bout of 10 sick boys. But even the science on the causes (bacterial or viral) of gastro intestinal maladys is in constant revision.

Let me edit here and add:

In no way can it be assumed that fish digestion and vulnerability is the same as humans'. A dog can eat things that would kill me outright. So I am sure that a fish is also different.

I thought I might as well add that before someone else did.

 

[The-Wolf]

What is "systemic bacterial infection" exactly?

systemic bacterial infection is a term applied to an unknown form of bacteria
that is so deadly it can, and often does, wipe out an entire tank overnight because it attacks the fishes internal organs

there is no cure as it acts so fast and by the time you realise this is what you have it is too late
It has happened to my fish when I started and I almost gave up fish keeping as a result of loosing 90% of my stock.

hmm, doing a quick search on google reveals that there is one genus of bacteria that is often associated with
systemic bacterial infections, not only in fish but in cows and people too. that genus is Vibrionacae
if you wish to read the full article see the link
http/www.aquafarmer.com.au/Bacterial_Fis...quafarming.html

the article mentions treatment, but like I said by the time you notice the problem in an aquarium it is often too late.