Fishless Cycling

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white_and_nerdy

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With the "Add and Wait" method it says that once the cycle is complete, you can safely add your full fish load as the tank will have enough bacteria built up to handle any waste they produce.

But the "Add Daily" method suggests that if the ammonia levels ever goes over 6 to 8ppm that it severly slows the process and is a waste of time and effort.

With the "Add and Wait" method, the highest level of ammonia should reach 4 to 5 ppm of ammonia. Why is it that once the cycle is complete after using this method that you can add a full load of fish straight away? I don't understand how a full load of fish can be sustained straight away by using this method.
 
The high concentration of ammonia will promote the growth of the wrong bacteria. At 8 ppm the wrong bacteria will completely dominate your bacterial culture. If you are using that thread, always favor the add and wait method. In fact a cycle can well be performed at only 1 ppm but the 5 ppm in the thread reflects the maximum acceptable ammonia concentration. Lately I have been favoring a value closer to maybe 2 ppm, although I have not "fixed" the thread because what it suggests really does work.
 
OldMan happy to see you are coming around to the lower dosing method. The next step is to reduce the max levels from 5 to 4 ppm. The reason for this is simple, it gives a margin of error. New fish keepers may make mistakes in testing or dosing. If one doses too little, it wont hurt anything but it may make the cycle take a tad longer. Overdosing in excess of 5 ppm will usually have worse consequences.

The idea to dose to 4 or 5 ppm and even higher originated with the early fishless cyclers. However, they also advocated using as much seed material as possible. When you can jump start with a lot of bacteria it changes the paradigm relative to how much ammonia one can dose safely. But even back then they had an inkling that going too high with ammonia and/or nitrite was likely bad. They just did not know why for sure. The why is it can inhibit the bacteria or even kill them.

My experience with daily dosing has been it only works well when the daily dose is pretty low (higher works if the level of seeding is high). This way ammonia never builds to substantial levels before ammonia oxidizers start to work and it also helps hold down nitrite levels until the nitrite oxidizers appear. Best estimates are I started at about .50 ppm/day until nitrites appeared when I reduced it to about .35 ppm/day until fully cycled.

white_and_nerdy- the reason is that the amount of ammonia most established and stocked tanks will produce is pretty low. Remember, it is not all produced in a single big load the way dosing ammonia does. In an established tank ammonia is being produced 24/7. While the actual rate will vary with different times of the day, it is still basically a low level ongoing process. Therefore, the amount of bacteria needed isn't what can handle a single big dose quickly, but what can process the much lower level ongoing amounts. Which is why almost any fishless cycling article you will read tends to agree on one thing. You are cycled when you can dose X ammonia and then test in somewhere between 12 and 24 hours and get a 0 reading for both ammonia and nitrite while showing increased nitrate levels over the same period. The time is needed because the amount of ammonia that one's tank might naturally produce over that 12 or 24 hours would add up to somewhere closer to the X amount.

Think of it this way, 2 ppm in a day, if it were uniformly produced, is only .083 ppm/hour. 4 ppm a day would be .166 ppm/hour. So what your final dose test really shows is that your tank could handle the ongoing levels in that range.

Daily dosing of the equivalent of 4 or 5 ppm without a huge amount of bacterial seeding is a sure fire path to problems and failures, imo.
 
Is there such a thing as high ammonia levels in a cycled tank? If there is - is it a sign that the ammonia produced can't be processed quickly enough by the bacteria? Or is it a sign that the tank is not yet fully cycled?
 
The definition of a cycled tank is one which can sustain 0 ammonia and nitrite when it has fish in it. If ammonia or nitrite is present it suggests there's something wrong with the tank. There are a number of reasons this can happen and it's always a good idea to sort it out ASAP.
 
The definition of a cycled tank is one which the hobby test kits we use read 0 for both ammonia and nitrite. They will read 0 because the actual levels of these things in the tank is below the kit's limits to test. However, there is always a low low level of ammonia and nitrite present. If there were not, the bacteria would go dormant and eventually perish. However, these amounts are sufficient to feed the bacteria and keep them active but do not present any danger to fish or other tank inhabitants.
 
The high concentration of ammonia will promote the growth of the wrong bacteria. At 8 ppm the wrong bacteria will completely dominate your bacterial culture. If you are using that thread, always favor the add and wait method. In fact a cycle can well be performed at only 1 ppm but the 5 ppm in the thread reflects the maximum acceptable ammonia concentration. Lately I have been favoring a value closer to maybe 2 ppm, although I have not "fixed" the thread because what it suggests really does work.


Have already started a no fish dose and wait cycle. Put in the recommended amount of ammonia to bring it up to 5 and waiting for the nitrites. Would it be ok after the initial ammonia dosage goes down to resubmit ammonia to a value of 2 instead of 5 again, to help speed the process ?
 

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