Fishless Cycle Almost Complete Few More Questions

[Jeff Lange]

Yes, It is all carbon in a carbon basket with a blue filter pad on the outside of the basket whcih fits into the Canister. That is what came with the Canister filter and what has been running during the whole Cycling process. It also came with a Micron polishing filter which I am not using. It must be working as My tank is cycling and showing all the bactera ammonia, Nitrite, Nitrate and the ammonia etc is being removed in the 10-12 hour time frame. But from what I read on the Magnum filters they lack the Biological. Great for Mechanical and Chemical. I have raised this issue with a few LFS and both said that the Magnum will be ok as the only filter for my aquarium. My 20 gallon uses a Penguim 200 w/ bio wheel.
I just don't want to put a hang on filter on this tank.
I am a little worried after I get this cycled if I change to a new type of canister filter (Eheim) I don't want to stall my cycle as I will be adding my fish soon I hope. Maybe when I do make the change I can put 1/2 of the old carbon from the Magnum into one of the media trays from the Eheim. Not planning on making a canister change to the Eheim for 2 weeks after I get my fish in though. Was hoping to run them both on the system for a while.
I must have something working though. The LFS uses the magnum 350 on many of there systems and they told me that the bacteria will be in my gravel / subtrate and my canister filter vi Carbon Container. I could prob add something else in place of the carbon I guess.

 

[rabbut]

The carbon will be acting as biological media in the abscence of proper bio media, as it has a very large surface area over which to colonise. You will have to be very careful when changing it out. I'd swap the carbon for sponge, ceramic rings or bio balls, over the course of a few weeks, to allow the bacteira to transfer over to the new dedicated biological filter media.
Carbon is expencive to use if used correctly, as it is only chemicaly active for a few days at best, becomming saturated very quickly. To run correctly it all needs to be replaced weekly, and costs quickly mount up. This is why few aquarists will run carbon I'd switch the lot personaly to bio media, but if you want to keep using it, keep a maximum of 1/4 of the filters capacity spare for this media, repacing the rest of the space with carbon instead
It is important to make the change slowly, so the bacteria can transfer over. Aim to take 4 weeks over the change It may take longer, especialy as it is a new colonie, and thus will be a little fragile ATM. I only use carbon to remove medications, and as a one off in these eents only

HTH
Rabbut

 

[Jeff Lange]

The carbon will be acting as biological media in the abscence of proper bio media, as it has a very large surface area over which to colonise. You will have to be very careful when changing it out. I'd swap the carbon for sponge, ceramic rings or bio balls, over the course of a few weeks, to allow the bacteira to transfer over to the new dedicated biological filter media.
Carbon is expencive to use if used correctly, as it is only chemicaly active for a few days at best, becomming saturated very quickly. To run correctly it all needs to be replaced weekly, and costs quickly mount up. This is why few aquarists will run carbon I'd switch the lot personaly to bio media, but if you want to keep using it, keep a maximum of 1/4 of the filters capacity spare for this media, repacing the rest of the space with carbon instead
It is important to make the change slowly, so the bacteria can transfer over. Aim to take 4 weeks over the change It may take longer, especialy as it is a new colonie, and thus will be a little fragile ATM. I only use carbon to remove medications, and as a one off in these eents only

HTH
Rabbut

Rabbut,

Do you think I can hook a new Eheim 2028 professional II up to my system after the fish are in it with the current Magnum 350 ?
Put 1/2 of the carbon from the magnum which has been running for 3- 4 weeks in it so it has some biological load replacing that half with new carbon to the magnum ? 1/2 new carbon & 1/2 old carbon.
Could I run both filters with my fish in it for a month or so ? Would this be too much flow rate for my fish?
65 gallon tank.
Then after a month remove the magnum canister filter or use it as a buffer filter only maybe 1 time weekly?
Current Fish I will be transferring to new tank:
( 3 med to large Angels, 2 coreydovas, 2 clown Loach ) I was also going to add 4 more coreydovas as that was mentioned earlier to have 6-8 of them.

 

[Jeff Lange]

Ahh , also I have not touched the carbon media / filter sleeve since I started the fishless cycling as my understanding was don't tough anything until the cycle is completed. The blue filter sleeve has alot of moldy type spots on it, kind of brown , white spots . I am thinking this is bacteria that is being collected on the blue filter sleeve. Was going to rinse it after the 1st 4 or 5 days after I added fish using same water that is in the aquarium to rinse it.

 

[Jeff Lange]

Well, Think I'm getting close now. This is the 3ed day that I have processed Nitrite to 0 in around 18 hours or so. Each morning I get up and it's 0 so it is definatly processing in under 24 hours. After 12 hours or so it is around .50 the last 2 days and 0 after 24 hours. Ammonia has been processing approx 4ppm in 10-12 hours for a week or week and a half. Nitrite is taking a little longer.
What do you guys think?
Since I have not touched my Filter ( Again the Marineland Magnum 350 with the Media Trey and Carbon in as the Media with the Blue Filter Sleeve around the media basket ) should I rinse the dirty filter sleeve as it has fungus, probably bacteria that has been stopped from entering the media container all over it or shoud I leave it alone for now ? The sleeve acts to stop small particles of debris. I definatly don't want to loose my bacteria that I waited so long to build up.

Should I replace 1/2 of the Carbon Media with new Carbon Media before I do my 95 percent water change ? Have not touched any of this since I started my cycle. I think this is where alot of my Bactera has been growing and again don't want to loose my bacteria colony.

Then I will do a 95 percent water change, acclimate tempature and then move my fish in from my 28 gallon?

Also planning on getting one of the Eheim models 2028 or 2026 in the next week or so for my 65 gallon for some sort of biological filtration. Don't know which one yet as there does not seem to be a big rate flow difference between the two. The 2026 for up to 90 gallons @ 250 gph and the 2028 is for up to 160 Gal @280 gph.

 

[waterdrop]

Jeff,
I made a few notes to myself yesterday re your filter research but I left them on one of my office computers. I'll hope to have a few minutes to pass that on later today. Probably nothing you haven't already thought of. I remember looking up your current filter some weeks back because it was so unusual. In hindsight I'm sure you wish you could have discussed and considered here on the TFF hardware forum, but such is life. I've been sort of thinking maybe your current might make a great mechanical and water polishing filter, working alongside a new cannister which could take over the bio duties. My thoughts at the office involved trying to think whether you would want one large cannister or a smaller one that could then be matched with a second smaller one later if the current filter moved out of the picture.

~~waterdrop~~
edits. there have been several other current threads with quite a bit of cannister filter discussion in them - probably you have noticed?

 

[Jeff Lange]

Jeff,
I made a few notes to myself yesterday re your filter research but I left them on one of my office computers. I'll hope to have a few minutes to pass that on later today. Probably nothing you haven't already thought of. I remember looking up your current filter some weeks back because it was so unusual. In hindsight I'm sure you wish you could have discussed and considered here on the TFF hardware forum, but such is life. I've been sort of thinking maybe your current might make a great mechanical and water polishing filter, working alongside a new cannister which could take over the bio duties. My thoughts at the office involved trying to think whether you would want one large cannister or a smaller one that could then be matched with a second smaller one later if the current filter moved out of the picture.

~~waterdrop~~
edits. there have been several other current threads with quite a bit of cannister filter discussion in them - probably you have noticed?

Yea, I was thinking something similar. Wish I had found this site prior to my purchasing the filter but as always, i took the word of the LFS guys as they use the 350 on many of their aquariums as the only filter.
I probably will hook up the 2ed canister and keep it going for a month or so along side my current setup until I get a bacteria colony in the new filter as well. Don't know if I should go with the bigger model Eheim though but maybe always better bigger than too small. I think the Eheim has a flow adjustment so I can lower that if it does so the flow is not too great. I will remove the air stone I had in while cycling.

I want to try and add my fish to the new aquarium tommorrow or Saturday but am a little worried about the current media which is the carbon inside the canister. It has not been changed since I started the cycle ( Hence, Don't touch anything until the cycle is completed) But the Filter pad looks dirty and maybe I can change 50% of the carbon out and replace with 50 percent new so not to remove all my bacteria colony if that is where it is actually forming. The tank I think is almost cycled or is actually cycled so I am trying to get all my T's crossed and dots dotted before i add the fish.
Thanks again for your help, will await your reply.

 

[rabbut]

50% media change will make for a mini-cycle, you have been warned

I would still replace 50% of the carbon though, but not for carbon. I'd try to get some proper bio media in there Bio media will hold a much more stable bacteria colonie than carbon, which you need of you are adding fish, thus mini-cycles are less likely to occur in bio media Mini-cycles with fish in can be as bad as fish-in cycling with a full bio-load

Just a heads up
Rabbut

 

[Jeff Lange]

50% media change will make for a mini-cycle, you have been warned

I would still replace 50% of the carbon though, but not for carbon. I'd try to get some proper bio media in there Bio media will hold a much more stable bacteria colonie than carbon, which you need of you are adding fish, thus mini-cycles are less likely to occur in bio media Mini-cycles with fish in can be as bad as fish-in cycling with a full bio-load

Just a heads up
Rabbut

Well Rabbut, Here is what I think I will do and I'm not too happy about it
I am going to pick up a Rena XP3 today I think and set it up tommorrow into my tank to run at the moment with the magnum ( Tandum)
I am going with the Rena XP3 vs the Eheim 2028 due to ease of availability and I think this should do the trick in the end. The Eheim seems to be harder to get in my area as no one has it but I have read some good reviews on it as well as bad. Seems it is going to be outdated though as a newer model is comming out pfffffffffffffffff.
Same with the Rena XP3, heard good and bad but I have read it will do all 3 of my filter needs at the same time, biological, mechanical and chemical.
I am not going to move my fish for 7-10 days or longer after I set up the Rena to give it time to generate some of the bacteria in the media. I will go with the bio chem stars instead of the ceramic rings for the biological media.
Guess I will continue to keep adding 4 ppm of ammonia for another 7-10 days minimum ( Got to buy another bottle of ammonia )
What do you think of the Rena XP3 Filter ? Any experiance with them ?

 

[rabbut]

No direct experience with the XP3, but I run the XP2 and am very impressed Great little filter and very user friendly. There isn't enough bio-media supplied with these filters, instead they supply an ammonia removing pad that they expect you to replace every month Here you go again lol. I'd ditch the pad right off the bat as it will uncycle your tank, making you reliant on it. When you get the filter, collect another pack or two of bio stars, to replace this pad

Otherwise, a briliant filter that is quiet, fairly low maintanance, and reliable. In my area though, it is more expencive than competing brands, and hard to get hold of Strange how things turn out isn't it?

All the best
Rabbut

 

[waterdrop]

XP3 sounds good, will be interested to hear how it goes and what you think of it. ~~waterdrop~~

 

[Jeff Lange]

WEll got the xp3 hooked up and I did use the media packages they supplied me with. I purchased extra and added both the bio-Chem Stars in one compartment and also a box of Fluval Bio-Max ( ceramic rings ) below that in the trey. Hope the Bio-Chem does not ruin the cycle as I did put that at the top of the media treys where the directions indicated. Still have room below the bio chem zorb in the first box for some other type of media if I want. This filter has alot of room for media.
Wow, I had to take the sprey bar off and use the power jet nozzel. This filter seems to have a lot more power than my magnum 350 had to also turn down the outflow adjustment nob at the top. Much more water movement than the 350. I replaced half the carbon in the Magnum 350, left 1/2 in for the bacteria in the event it was in the carbon. I plan on keeping these up for 10 days tanget with each other before I even think of adding any fish. Hopefully my cycle continues. The filter is not so noisy but the outlet on the water surface is noisy on this. Let me know if you have any opionios maybe I need it below the water level. Also noisy due to both filters spraying water on the top.
Will probably eliminate the magnum all together in a few weeks.
Will keep adding ammonia every day and hoepfully everything continues to cycle. How long do you guys think I should run the XP3 before I add my fish assuming I am still processing ammonia and nitrite in 12 hours or so ? 10-15 days ?

 

[backtotropical]

Hi Jeff,

Congrats on your XP3.

I must re-iterate what Rabbut said about the Bio-Chem. It will uncycle your filter as it will deprive the bacteria of ammonia.

You should remove it immediately, before it does any damage.

Bio-Max is fine as this is just ceramic rings for the bacteria to grow on.

Cheers

BTT

 

[rabbut]

To transfer accross safely, you want to run them in tandom for at least 4 weeks, to allow the bacteria to migrate to the new filter. You are basicaly undoing all your hard work cycling if you leave that bio chem zorb in the tank, as it is more competitive towards ammonia utilisation than the filter bacteria, thus it will kill them off by out-competing them. This makes you reliant on the pad which is fine if you keep on top of maintanace and replace it as often as the manufacturer tells you, but it will give you a real head ache if you need to medicate, as it will need to be removed in those circumstances, thus you would have an un-cycled tank which would need regular (twice daily) 50% waterchanges during treatment, to stop the ammonia poisoning your fish Also, if you forget to buy the replacement, you may also find yourself in a position where you have to do regular water changes to stay on top of the ammonia.

I'd get that pad out, and put your bio stars and ceramic media in it's place. This will avoid the issues, should you need to treat the tank later, and is also cheaper to run as the new media you bought will never need replacing, despite of what the manufacturer tells you If ammonia is dropped allong with nitrite to 0 in 12 hours at the moment, wait untill it has been doing this for a week, then you can add your fish. After 4 weeks of running the new filter along side your Rena, start removing 1/4 of the total media from the magnum each week, untill all the media is gone, and you are running from the Rena only

All the best
Rabbut

 

[Jeff Lange]

I removed it last night after I saw the post. It was only in a few hours. This morning everything had cycled again. Ammonia 0, Nitrite 0 , Nitrate 40-80 and PH 7.6.
Will keep adding ammonia, not sure how long or when it may be safe to add fish. Maybe in 10 days I turn off the magnum for few days and keep adding ammonia and see what happens ?
I had to lower the nozzel of the XP3 under the water a bit , as it was making alot of surface noise. It is still irragating the surface but I submerged the head just below the water line and have the output at 3/4 max power.
I will keep you all updated. If you think of any information for me on possible ways to keep cycling with the new XP3 and my Magnum I will listen to everyone.
This unit is sure alot easier to clean and take apart than the Magnum 350