Fishkeeping myths debunked!!!!

[Back in the fold]

Wow . . . . two winners today that summed things up quite well . Can’t add a thing .

 

[TwoTankAmin]

The biggest myths in the hobby are when it is said this is what applies universally. There are not a lot of universals in the hobby. One would be fish must be kept in water.

I was never big on keeping African rift lake cichlids because my water is very wrong for them. However, I have had a fascination with observing how different methods of spawning and fry rearing work and being able to observe them. Very early on in my keeping journey (think 2002.2003) one of the people I knew from my earliest fish forum and chat room made me a very generous offer. He was a respected breeder of dwarf cichlids and especially Apistos. His screen name was Zman and his real name was Don Zilliox. We lost Don on 2019.

I was getting ready to attend my first OCA weekend and Don was going to his last one as he was beginning his retirement from fish being in his 70s. He had heard me say in chat that I wanted to observe mouth breeding in person. So he offered to give ma a pair of "Pseudocrenilabrus nicholsi is a species of cichlid native to the Congo Basin in Africa. As other members of the genus Pseudocrenilabrus, it is a mouth brooder." He brought them to the OCA and I brought them home. This fish is a riverine cichlid which could thrive in my well water. This species of ciclid is considered to be, inch for inch, one of the nastier cichlids out there. My experience with thme nore this out.

My first spawn had me very excited and she choce to hide in a space in the fromt left corner of the well olanted 15 gal where they were the only ingabitants. I quckly learned that a male nicholsi had only two things it wanted to d- eat and spawn/ It was harassing the female cpntantly even after whewas holding. So, he had to be removed. I got to watch her mouth swell, then how she would let out a few of the fri into the have mosst and take them back in. I was thrilled when sh let all of the fry out into the tank.

Less than 3 days later there was not a single fry left, she ate them all. So I returned the male and got a second spawn. This time I stipped her of the fry and removed her from the tank. The fry grew and I rehomed most of them. For me seeing the parents, or the mom at least, eat her young was unexpected. So much for leaving all chiclid babies with the parents.

A few years kater I embarked on my almost 20 years of breeding the B&W Hypans starting with zebras. What I learned pretty early on was that when the babies were left in the breeding tansk with the parents and supplied with food of a size the fry could manage, they thrives, They grew faster there than when I was foreced to start my first groe tank for them. In coreesponding with othe zebra breeders I found that many of them agreed with my experience of which way the fry grew the fastest. Many of them also agreed with my thinking on needed to consume the poop to acquire tha needed microorganisms.

The results of the above motivated me whenever I set up a new grow tank for zebras, or the other Xingu Hypans whith which I worked, to siphons poop from the adults out of the breeder tank and add it to the new grow tank. Ultimateky, what I also discovered was that the poop only needed toc ome from older inviduals and by alloweing some of the fry in a grow tank to remain there and gain my=ucj more size was enough to unsure there was always a supply of the needed organisms in the tank.

Being one who always wants to understand the why behind what goes on in our tanks I came to the consulsion that the fry were born lacking certain diegestive microorganisms that aied in the ability to process utrients most efficiently. the best way to get thise microrfganisms was to considme some amount of the poop from more mature fish which had them.

So I have experienced both sides of the leaving or not leaving fry with their parents (or other adults of the species). What I do believe is that most fish will see eggs, wigglers or fry as being on the menu. This makes me think that is also why some parents need a few tries to learn not to eat their own eggs. But I was also taught and believe that angelfish, which a re normally good parents, will eat their own eggs before letting something else which can and will do so is allowed to do it. But I only had a few angel spawns as I was getting about 500 eggs a spawn which is why I did not become an angel breeder. My plecos gave me much fewer fry but they also sold for a whole lot more. This made it all less work for me

 

[Rusty_Shackleford]

I believe that domestics are more debatable as most haven't learned proper brood care and it really shows. Sometimes if they spawn enough times they will learn but others never do.

The bottom line is you can't make a one line response and declare other views a myth without explanation. I disagree with removing parents from newly hatched fry, or vice versa, with Cichlids. Breeders I respect do it, and it works. My experience (and discussions with longtime breeders) suggests it will affect broodcare, and suggests that while broodcare is instinctive in Cichlids (as it is with us), parental modelling helps the instincts express themselves.
I like to breed fish for several generations, so I often see a different show. I'm closely watching three pairs of Parananochromis brevirostris who are maybe going to produce an F-3 brood, probably the first one in captivity. One of my f-1 pairs (for newcomers, the first fish I had were wild caught. The first brood of captive bred fry were F-1. Their fry would be F-2, and so on). I had a surprise as I always remove fry at a month, as Pelvicachromis and Apistogramma will often kill fry around that time as they prepare to spawn again and see them as a danger. My Paranaochromis were over-running my space, so I left a group of about 20 fry in with the parents. They have grown to 2m now, totally unchased even by the parents, who spawned again.

Would the fry eventually show this behaviour if I took them as soon as I saw them? I don't know. What I value isn't the color or the numbers. No one I can get these fish to wants them, so there's no money involved. I want behaviour above all, and I want behaviour across generations.

We'll never have scientific studies on this. There's not enough money in it, and not enough interest. Scientists need jobs and that means large scale aquaculture gets papers. Fish farms want mass production. Taking the fry works. It isn't something someone can set up a multigenerational study with controls etc, unless they are independently wealthy. If one of us did this for rams, one for Apisto njisseni and one for a Pelvicachromis species, we would only have data for 3 species among many anyway.

The second myth is easier. Fry can find food. They aren't brainless or immobile. They can be raised in larger tanks without losses. In larger tanks, breeders who also have jobs or families don't have to change water every day. Come here, and you'll see P. brevirostris Cichlid young, Nothobranchius palmqvisti killies, black neon tetras and Enteromius fasciolatus juvies all at decent sizes and in excellent health in my growout tanks, going on one to three water changes a week. The growth rates are just fine. The Nothobranchius growth rates are well researched, and are spot on target. The guy in the video had maybe 100 ugly linebred angelfish in a 40 gallon to represent all fish - slack thinking on his part.

Just because most of us aren't professional scientists does mean we can't use our brains with a bit of seriousness. It isn't a black and white world, and a lot of approaches work. When I see these videos, I get angry because they're lazy minds spreading lazy ideas, when for a few more sentences, they could be contributing to a debate. But they want to be gurus, and gurus are right, always.

I'm a great believer in modal auxiliary verbs (I taught writing). Can, may, might, could - they express uncertainty. If you have experimented with different systems, read serious studies or pooled resources with other aquarists who work differently than you do, you might be able to make a pronouncement. Based on an icestorm experience, I can say that all Apistogramma are dead when the water reaches 5c for more than 24 hours. That's based on observation and a really bad week in 1998.

A little respect for your own brain, and respect for other views goes a long way to getting you respected. The hobby has to relearn that.

This might be the new trend/marketing ploy. Imagine the advertisements for F1 Apistos.....parent raised, at a higher price point of course.

Great list of trusted people/resources @GaryE I know you're not a big rift lake cichlid guy, but Ad Konigs should listed as another solid cornerstone.

As far as myths, it's said fishkeepers are ugly, old, troll, hermits. Some myths are rooted in reality.

 

[Back in the fold]

it's said fishkeepers are ugly, old, troll, hermits. Some myths are rooted in reality.

Hey ! I resemble that remark !

 

[anewbie]

This might be the new trend/marketing ploy. Imagine the advertisements for F1 Apistos.....parent raised, at a higher price point of course.

Great list of trusted people/resources @GaryE I know you're not a big rift lake cichlid guy, but Ad Konigs should listed as another solid cornerstone.

As far as myths, it's said fishkeepers are ugly, old, troll, hermits. Some myths are rooted in reality.

A lot of people IMHO abuse the F1 thing. They take domestic fishes breed them and start calling the off springs F1. This is technically correct (I think) but for me F1 implies one generation from wild not one generation from ownership so it pisses me off when people do this. As for selling? I personally don't sell fishes though i've been giving away fewer of them as shipping cost goes up. USPS used to be very trust worthy until well it would be against forum rules to tell what broke USPS and UPS prices ahve actually come down a bit for over night If you are not too far away but no more cross country shipping

 

[Back in the fold]

USPS used to be very trust worthy until well it would be against forum rules to tell what broke USPS and UPS prices ahve actually come down a bit for over night If you are not too far away but no more cross country shipping

The US Postal Service contracts with Fed Ex and UPS picks up the overflow if there’s any . Air cargo is much busier than it has ever been and more so all the time . Your package is NOT handled carefully and the shippers care about only one thing , their schedule . I worked air cargo for twelve years before the boom in volume and saw things that made me cringe . It just has to be worse now .

 

[anewbie]

The US Postal Service contracts with Fed Ex and UPS picks up the overflow if there’s any . Air cargo is much busier than it has ever been and more so all the time . Your package is NOT handled carefully and the shippers care about only one thing , their schedule . I worked air cargo for twelve years before the boom in volume and saw things that made me cringe . It just has to be worse now .

No the issue i ahve is with priority mail not how the handle the package but the time it takes. Fix rate priority used to be pretty much 2 day shipping but then it broke and now it can be 2 weeks you never know.

 

[TwoTankAmin]

There is one good thing about using the USPS for shipping. They do not leave undelivered mail on trucks overnight. They bring it inside the post office. My first decade in the hobby I used USPS for shipping fish. My local post office knew me and knew I had fish going in both directions (in and out). Back then the email notification on postal shipping was a joke. I would have a box of fish home and the fish into tanks for several hours before I got the email saying they had been delivered.

I was also lucky in another respect. We have used a post office box address since early in 1962. So, if I got fish shipped in via the post office, when the box arrived, it went inside the post office. Eventually, they knew me so well that, when a box arrived, they would call me and let me know it was there. I did not have to rush to get it as an hour or two more inside was not an issue.

What killed the speed with which Express and Priority as well as regular mail moved was the appointment of Louis DeJoy as the Post master general in 2020. He has been replaced as of July 15, 2025. DeJoy resigned on March 24, 2025.

(edited to fix typos)

 

[Back in the fold]

What killed the speed with which Express and Priority as well as regular mail moved was the appointment if Louis DeJoy as the Post master genera in 2020. He has been replaced as of July 15, 2025. DeJoy resigned on March 24, 2025.

Which proves beyond all doubt that bean counters and pencil pushers don’t know how to run logistics or anything else for that matter . They should stay in their cubicles and inventory the paper clips .

 

[TwoTankAmin]

If only it were that simple.

Louis DeJoy's net worth is estimated to be around $110 million.

Before being appointed U.S. Postmaster General in June 2020, DeJoy was an entrepreneur and business executive for over 30 years. His wealth largely stems from his time in the private sector, particularly his ownership of the logistics firm New Breed Logistics, which was acquired by XPO Logistics in 2014.

DeJoy's financial disclosures as a public official have drawn scrutiny due to his extensive investments in companies that are competitors or contractors of the U.S. Postal Service (USPS), such as XPO Logistics, J.B. Hunt, and UPS. He reportedly held between $30 million and $75 million in assets related to these companies with his wife as of August 2020.

As Postmaster General, DeJoy is the highest-paid USPS employee. In 2024, his compensation was reported as $561,051, with a salary of $341,020. His annual salary has increased each year since his appointment.

Dejoy was put into place to slow down the mail system in advance of the impending election to impede the delivery of mail in voting.

 

[anewbie]

Which proves beyond all doubt that bean counters and pencil pushers don’t know how to run logistics or anything else for that matter . They should stay in their cubicles and inventory the paper clips .

Not at all he was in charge of USPS which while having run a competitor and a mandate to make sure mail in ballots arrive late. He actually had the post office destroy machines that sped up mail delivery to slow it down.

 

[plebian]

Sadly, critical thinking skills, the ability to differentiate, and common sense appear to have gone the way of the dodo.

Not to mention simple logic.

 

[GaryE]

Complex logic is forever beyond some minds who seek simple right/wrong, black and white answers. But with a combination of logic, empathy, research, respect for others and their views and the acceptance of complexity, we can get somewhere. Always look on the bright side of life.

 

[gimme30]

But with a combination of logic, empathy, research, respect for others and their views and the acceptance of complexity, we can get somewhere.

We could, if the current generation of influencers possessed such qualities. Generally they're empathetic only to a cause they believe in, respect only others who feel the same way they do, and consider surfing a couple hours of youtube vids "research."

"Joe Blow make platy babies, him master breeder. I follow tips, me get platy babies too. Me master breeder! Video to come!"

An exaggeration of course but not too far off the mark. Thankfully, as mentioned, there will always be bright minds advancing, well, whatever, but sadly not in the numbers we'd like. Social media is dumbing down the population. Our education system isn't doing us any favors either. My granddaughters aren't offered social studies or science classes like we had when I was a kid. Their schools have dropped music/choir and art classes as well and stopped requiring spelling by the time they hit the 4th grade. They're never given a chance to compete-EVERYBODY wins.
Participation trophies. What the h. e. double hockey sticks? That's a surefire way to stifle any desire to rise above or THINK.

Which, again, is why I refuse to cut the people who should know better any slack. Call me jaded or a curmudgeon but until society changes as a whole I don't see things getting any better.
On the bright side, I'll be dead before it gets too awful bad. So, there's that.

 

[GaryE]

Call me jaded or a curmudgeon but until society changes as a whole I don't see things getting any better.
On the bright side, I'll be dead before it gets too awful bad. So, there's that.

Monty Python's 'always look on the bright side of life' is a song to live by!

When I was a kid, I was shunned for asking about evolution. I appreciate that greatly now, but things weren't better at any point in any past. Ten years ago when I taught High School I had cult leaders telling me to ban books and threatening me because I wouldn't do it. Some people don't like critical thinking, any more than they did in 1970, 1770 or 1270. We live with the results in many countries.

The often self educated, hard working old men I grew up around in the aquarium hobby spoke the same way as we do now. They were just as frustrated with people who wouldn't consider new ideas or question the ways they did things. So it was and so it will be.

We probably have about the same percentage of people who value education and critical thinking as we always had. We just have more efficient means of opinion control being wielded by the self serving powers who own them. It looks bad, but it always has. Smile. Then get to work debunking myths, and learning what's being studied and examined in a serious manner by serious minds. There are lots of them out there, and we have to learn to spot and ignore the lightweights.

There are people walking around living for years with the once untreatable form of cancer that killed my father 27 years ago. Not everyone chooses to go along for the ride, but it's not all doom and gloom.