Fishkeeping myths debunked!!!!

[GaryE]

I was just being a serious person and laughing at Graham Norton Show reels while the pasta boiled, when suddenly a fishkeeping video appeared at the end of one. 5 fishkeeping myths debunked.

3 of the myths weren't myths. "Debunking" consisted of saying they weren't true. Not a single reason offered, not a single fact cited, nothing but some unknown person's uninformed opinion.

If we're going to debunk, or mythbust, we have to be a little more serious. Yeah, reels are short and punchy, but viewers haven't all been repeatedly punched. We can think. Wordiness is a great sin online, but if we can't explain ourselves, we should probably be silent. If we give our reasons, people can analyze them, and do their own thinking about something that interests them.

Everyone knows that that everyone knows that....

 

[sharkweek178]

What were the "myths"?

 

[Aquaria Pro Aquatics]

I was just being a serious person and laughing at Graham Norton Show reels while the pasta boiled, when suddenly a fishkeeping video appeared at the end of one. 5 fishkeeping myths debunked.

3 of the myths weren't myths. "Debunking" consisted of saying they weren't true. Not a single reason offered, not a single fact cited, nothing but some unknown person's uninformed opinion.

If we're going to debunk, or mythbust, we have to be a little more serious. Yeah, reels are short and punchy, but viewers haven't all been repeatedly punched. We can think. Wordiness is a great sin online, but if we can't explain ourselves, we should probably be silent. If we give our reasons, people can analyze them, and do their own thinking about something that interests them.

Everyone knows that that everyone knows that....

Not to be that guy that follows others but what were the myths?

 

[GaryE]

I'd have to go back and find it again. It had gems like only raising fry in small tanks, which made daily water changes a necessity. Removing cichlid fry immediately having no possible problems. I'd have retained the others if he had made me think about them, but he didn't try.

The cichlid fry question is debated because it's a 'mass' production method that may cause behavioural issues. I raise fry in larger tanks and do 2 or 3 times a week water changes, and I've had no problems over many years.

 

[f_luxus]

Opinions...
If we never forget, that we don't know everything, and stay willing to learn, it's okay to have them
I listened to you and now my pair GBR is swimming together in the breeding tank.

Groetjes

 

[anewbie]

I'd have to go back and find it again. It had gems like only raising fry in small tanks, which made daily water changes a necessity. Removing cichlid fry immediately having no possible problems. I'd have retained the others if he had made me think about them, but he didn't try.

The cichlid fry question is debated because it's a 'mass' production method that may cause behavioural issues. I raise fry in larger tanks and do 2 or 3 times a week water changes, and I've had no problems over many years.

I always leave frys with their parents esp wc ones. There is no doubt that for most wc dwarf cichild removing frys from the parents or mother is a BIG mistake.

 

[anewbie]

Opinions...
If we never forget, that we don't know everything, and stay willing to learn, it's okay to have them
I listened to you and now my pair GBR is swimming together in the breeding tank.

Groetjes

I believe that domestics are more debatable as most haven't learned proper brood care and it really shows. Sometimes if they spawn enough times they will learn but others never do.

 

[f_luxus]

Although I'm now doing it according to best practices, I would still be interested in sources and studies on the subject...

 

[anewbie]

Although I'm now doing it according to best practices, I would still be interested in sources and studies on the subject...

My experience with domestic rams is you might have to try several pairs before you find one that can raise the frys - i think it is worth it and they are inexpensive but the issue i run into (which is expected) is that if a pair is unable to raise the frys after some number of trys they will 'break up' sometimes violently and never breed again. So you can try some non-fixed number (maybe 5 or 7) but eventually they will give up. Now if they are successful then they will happily keep breeding. This is 'break' up is true of most dwarf cichild but it is more of a problem with domestic because they are more likely to fail repeatedly. For example with my current gold rams - the female refuse to do any thing related to brood care other than lay eggs leaving it to the male to guard/fan them and move them if they become wrigglers. Normally the female is much better at brood care then the male and the male will make an attempt but as the sole parent is pretty weak.

 

[GaryE]

The bottom line is you can't make a one line response and declare other views a myth without explanation. I disagree with removing parents from newly hatched fry, or vice versa, with Cichlids. Breeders I respect do it, and it works. My experience (and discussions with longtime breeders) suggests it will affect broodcare, and suggests that while broodcare is instinctive in Cichlids (as it is with us), parental modelling helps the instincts express themselves.
I like to breed fish for several generations, so I often see a different show. I'm closely watching three pairs of Parananochromis brevirostris who are maybe going to produce an F-3 brood, probably the first one in captivity. One of my f-1 pairs (for newcomers, the first fish I had were wild caught. The first brood of captive bred fry were F-1. Their fry would be F-2, and so on). I had a surprise as I always remove fry at a month, as Pelvicachromis and Apistogramma will often kill fry around that time as they prepare to spawn again and see them as a danger. My Paranaochromis were over-running my space, so I left a group of about 20 fry in with the parents. They have grown to 2m now, totally unchased even by the parents, who spawned again.

Would the fry eventually show this behaviour if I took them as soon as I saw them? I don't know. What I value isn't the color or the numbers. No one I can get these fish to wants them, so there's no money involved. I want behaviour above all, and I want behaviour across generations.

We'll never have scientific studies on this. There's not enough money in it, and not enough interest. Scientists need jobs and that means large scale aquaculture gets papers. Fish farms want mass production. Taking the fry works. It isn't something someone can set up a multigenerational study with controls etc, unless they are independently wealthy. If one of us did this for rams, one for Apisto njisseni and one for a Pelvicachromis species, we would only have data for 3 species among many anyway.

The second myth is easier. Fry can find food. They aren't brainless or immobile. They can be raised in larger tanks without losses. In larger tanks, breeders who also have jobs or families don't have to change water every day. Come here, and you'll see P. brevirostris Cichlid young, Nothobranchius palmqvisti killies, black neon tetras and Enteromius fasciolatus juvies all at decent sizes and in excellent health in my growout tanks, going on one to three water changes a week. The growth rates are just fine. The Nothobranchius growth rates are well researched, and are spot on target. The guy in the video had maybe 100 ugly linebred angelfish in a 40 gallon to represent all fish - slack thinking on his part.

Just because most of us aren't professional scientists does mean we can't use our brains with a bit of seriousness. It isn't a black and white world, and a lot of approaches work. When I see these videos, I get angry because they're lazy minds spreading lazy ideas, when for a few more sentences, they could be contributing to a debate. But they want to be gurus, and gurus are right, always.

I'm a great believer in modal auxiliary verbs (I taught writing). Can, may, might, could - they express uncertainty. If you have experimented with different systems, read serious studies or pooled resources with other aquarists who work differently than you do, you might be able to make a pronouncement. Based on an icestorm experience, I can say that all Apistogramma are dead when the water reaches 5c for more than 24 hours. That's based on observation and a really bad week in 1998.

A little respect for your own brain, and respect for other views goes a long way to getting you respected. The hobby has to relearn that.

 

[gimme30]

Since you guys shattered my illusions about Axelrod I hardly trust anything written anymore. But the 'net? Such a vast repository of knowledge right at our fingertips yet 90% complete bs, mainly thanks to the "gurus" @GaryE mentioned. These days I take mostly everything with a grain of salt, even from serious researchers who can prove a theory with the whys and hows, and can repeat their results. Sadly, critical thinking skills, the ability to differentiate, and common sense appear to have gone the way of the dodo.

 

[GaryE]

There are sites that have earned my trust, largely if I know who works on them. It's like Innes and Axelrod - one of these things is not like other. Ian Fuller for Corys, Oliver Lucanus for all groups, Dr Timothy Hovanic for microscopic life, Anton Lamboj for western African Cichlids, Bela Nagy for Nothos,dozens of people for other killies, @emeraldking for livebearers - a lot of people have earned my trust by doing the legwork, explaining themselves and sharing info without trying to be gurus.

Some of the people I trust are without real names - posters on sites like this who have consistently made sense without necessarily writing what I wanted to hear. The best disease treatment person I ever read was on one now dead forum from a small town in Nova Scotia, Canada. He was brilliant.

. Sadly, critical thinking skills, the ability to differentiate, and common sense appear to have gone the way of the dodo.

I don't think they were more common in the past, or we'd still have dodos. The internet amplifies a lot of stupidity, and makes it profitable. It isn't hard to think of youtube channels that could generate solid revenue if we didn't care about integrity in this hobby. I won't share my best idea because like a lot of people who were on the internet way back when, I've seen many of my worst thought experiments make money for people who thought the worst was a great idea.

 

[Back in the fold]

@GaryE “ The Internet amplifies a lot of stupidity “ . That statement made my whole day .

 

[gimme30]

a lot of people have earned my trust by doing the legwork, explaining themselves and sharing info without trying to be gurus.

I agree that lends credibility and suspect you wouldn't find their studies plastered all over youtube or facebook but rather in a more research-oriented or scientific format. Of course that's dull to the gotta-have-it-now-limited-attention-span crowd. Like magpies, they're only attracted to the shiny things. So a catchy myth gets swallowed whole and repeated as gospel-that's the easy button, after all, and how can someone with 2.6 million views possibly be wrong? It's that inability or unwillingness to separate the wheat from the chaff that makes me wonder what our little hobby will be like in a few decades.
Not that I'll be around to find out.

The younger "influencers" are a large part of the problem, but the older guys are the ones that really get my goat. Using their age to present themselves as fonts of wisdom. What does a septuagenarian care about internet fame? I just don't get the motivation. Are 'likes' really that important? I wish they'd take their fragile egos, con some sweet young thing into marrying them for their money, and go the hell away.
When I was 20 I knew everything. And you couldn't convince me otherwise. But life did. Gens xyzlmnop can argue this all they want but wisdom really does come with age. However I have always had a strong internal BS-'O-meter. What happened to that trait? To single you out for example, @GaryE, I don't know you beyond the content I've read here on this forum, but you don't set off any alarms. I'm confident you're not going to lead me astray and your experience shows in your observations or commentary. Father Fish? 30 seconds into one of his videos and I'm running for the exit. Sure, he's been around longer than I have. He may have kept fish longer as well. It was instantly clear to me he's full of enough fertilizer to do my garden and the entire back 40, if I had a back 40.
At 20 I wouldn't have believed him either. Have we really become that gullible? The flying part of following the herd off the cliff sounds like fun, but the landing...brutal.
Like dodos, people are myopic. They can't read the directions.

 

[GaryE]

Like dodos, people are myopic. They can't read the directions.

Like dodos, people are easy pickings. The birds didn't make themselves extinct.

I truly don't think younger influencers are any more uninformed than we were. People want easy answers, and if you tell them what they already want to believe, there's money to be made. It's far broader than the hobby. People are scared and upset. Standards of living are falling. Traditional skills and jobs are being wiped out. A lot of people are running to certainties they want to make the world feel right. Even in our little escapist hobby, we have gurus with answers, and no tolerance for questions. Try asking a reasonable question to Father Fish. He won't answer. You are background noise and lack faith in him. People like that want followers, whatever their ages.
I'll say every successful tank needs some time and work. Every fish needs a bit of reading to be kept properly. Successful fishkeeping probably needs an understanding of fish evolution, or at the very least of natural history. I'm a nerd, so I enjoy my water changes, fish oriented scaping, reading, fish exploring and plain old work. I like situations where I don't know the answer, yet.
I come here in the hopes someone will know either an answer to build from in the hunt for better questions. People on this forum come up with great food for thought.
Who wants that? These ideas don't stand a chance against not bothering with water changes, scape with plastic, never read but follow gurus and take it easy. There was a guy who used to pass me when I was walking my dog in the graveyard across the road. He drove a truck and had his arm hanging out the window holding a long leash with a poodle on it. He acted like he was a genius when the weather was bad, although one of the neighbours told me he eventually ran over his dog. If he made vids, he'd have tens of thousands of followers thinking he was funny and cute, and he'd just get a new dog that looked like the old one.

That guy's always existed in one form or another, and always will.

I'll wager there are lots of people who come to this forum as new fishkeepers who won't bother reading this, but who will become excellent, research oriented, seriously thoughtful aquarists. Those personalities've always existed, and always will.