Fish-In With Ammonia/De-Chlor

[Violinist]

A few weeks ago I essentially nuked my tank which had been running fine for three or four years. Out of ignorance, I dealt with a snail infestation by completely stripping the tank down to the glass - new filter media, new gravel, new water.

I've been reading this site daily since then. As you can imagine, it's been a lousy experience for me and the fish as I wait for it to cycle.

I have a test kit (vials and drops) and have been testing twice a day. I've also been adding dechlorinator and ammonia->ammonium drops when changing water. Have not lost any fish so far, though I have no doubt they are not leading very happy lives.

I read that the water conditioner drops are going to cause inaccurate ammonia readings with the test kit. When I test, the ammonia reading is off the charts, even immediately after doing a massive water change (I've been doing 95% daily because I'm freaked out by the readings).

My local shop (Sho Tank - great resource) was kind enough to spare me a healthy scoop of gravel out of one of his tanks. I put half in a nylon in my filter today and added the rest to the gravel bed of the tank.

So to the question at hand - Should I just move to a dechlorinator solution that doesn't mess with the ammonia levels? On the one hand I run the risk of not being speedy enough with the water changes and losing fish, but on the other hand I feel like I'm flying blind with the cycle because I simply get an over-the-top ammonia reading at all times due to the conditioner.

Nitrate and Nitrite readings are at the bottom end of both scales per the test kit charts. I'm hoping this will soon change with the addition of the shop's gravel.

 

[Wills]

It sounds like you are using some kind of ammo lock product that conditions the water and changes the ammonia in to ammonium (which is found in penguin chocolate bars) and less toxic to fish. At the same time by doing this you are not letting the filter start to cycle again. I think you need to start just using the dechlorinator and keep up with the big water changes each day usually 50%+ per day is good enough to make sure fish keep healthy in the cycle process. The gravel you have picked up will really help but if you can get any sponges that will help even more

I was once in a very similar situation to you once and I had 100% survival so it is do able just hang in there When you move over to using regular conditioner it sounds like with the big water changes you will have everything under control

Wills

 

[rebrn]

agree with wills, try just a plain conditioner. There are lots on the market that don't interfere with ammonia readings. But just out of curiosity why are you adding ammonia drops if you have fish in the tank? Adding ammonia with your water change would definitely give you a constant hight ammonia reading. May be I read that wrong ... if I did sorry?

I've also been adding dechlorinator and ammonia->ammonium drops when changing water

 

[OldMan47]

The conditioner is not causing the high ammonia readings. If you have high ammonia, you do. I hope the product that you called ammonia -> ammonium drops is not a form of ammonia. Many dechlorinators are designed to help make the ammonia less toxic because you get ammonia when you split a chloramine molecule into its component parts of ammonia and chlorine. Any dechlorinator will make that split happen and most are designed to make that bit of ammonia harmless. The only thing that removes ammonia safely is you doing a water change. Everything else does not remove the ammonia but may make a small amount of it less toxic. Do not try to rely on any product that says it makes all ammonia harmless. It may work for a short time but is no substitute for removing the ammonia completely.
Making the ammonia change into the ammonium form will not slow the cycle process at all. The bacteria really don't care how they get their ammonia fix as long as they get it. There is also no point to allowing your ammonia measurements to climb out of control. Water changes will get them under control if you don't ry to hold back and only do small ones. There is really no problem doing 3 or 4 90% water changes in a row if they are needed.

 

[Violinist]

Sorry for the confusion, It's Ammo Lock by API.

So if I remove all but enough water to keep the fish from flopping on the gravel, fill it up, and immediately get an ammonia test reading that is top-of-scale then that result is to be considered accurate? Just doing basic math I can't see how that's possible, but if it is then it is.

Assuming 10ppm ammonia, a 95% water change would leave 0.5ppm right? My test chart tops out at 5ppm. Using the same math, and constantly receiving 5ppm test results, that would mean the tank is at 100ppm ammonia before every water change each day. Heck of a lot of ammonia being produced and miraculous that the fish haven't died. Or am I misunderstanding the calculation?

 

[Tolak]

Chloramine, which is used as a disinfectant besides chlorine, is a combination of chlorine & ammonia. Any dechlorinator will split the chlorine/ammonia bond in chloramine, and take care of the chlorine, leaving you with ammonia. Better dechlorinators convert ammonia to ammonium, which is good for the short term when doing a water change in a cycled tank, but only prevents harm from the ammonia short term in a tank that isn't cycled. You may well be seeing an ammonia reading in your tank after a large water change due to this.

Many tests don't discriminate between ammonium & ammonia, showing the ammonium reading as ammonia. While the chemicals that convert ammonia to ammonium do work, and the bio filtration uses ammonia the same as ammonia, the next problem you will be seeing is nitrite. Large water changes are the key to nitrite levels, and in a cycling tank a sign thet there is light at the end of the tunnel.

One product, Prime, claims to neutralize nitrite. Getting the specific component out of them which does this has been unsuccessful, trade secret ingredient. The others are widely known, this one has been evading me for years.

 

[Violinist]

Ok did just three successive water changes of 60% tank volume each and about 45 minutes in between. Adding only de-chlor to the new water. Still the ammonia readings are at >5ppm. I did some reading on API's site and they say the ammo-lok can 'give false testkit readings', so I'm guessing until I've completely purged that stuff from the system I'm not going to have accurate readings.

Thanks for all the replies. I'm going to add ammo-lok to my list of do-not-add's in a cycling tank (though next time I'll be going fishless). On a side note, also tried Cycle last week - what a complete waste of money...

 

[DropkickDragout]

I'm in the same boat as you with both the Ammo-Lock and the Cycle products. Grr.

 

[Tolak]

By false test readings they mean the test will see ammonium as ammonia.

Once the Ammo-Lock is out of the water the reading you will be seeing is ammonia, provided the dechlorinator you are using is sodioum thiosulfate without hydromethane sulfonate, and your water is treated with chloramine. With three 60% water changes you have removed around 80% of anything in the water, not to mention the active component of Ammo-Lock, hydromethane sulfonate, is only active for 48 hours.

It is not a case of the Ammo-Lock causing the reading, it is the ammonia left over from the chlorimine, which is a combination of chlorine & ammonia. All the Ammo-Lock does is convert ammonia to ammonium, which is read as ammonia by your test. This is what they mean by a false reading for ammonia.

 

[Violinist]

I did three more similar sized changes this afternoon. Ammonia reads approx 1.0 now.

The brand is Dechlor, they don't say on the bottle what is in it that I can see.

 

[waterdrop]

Unless you're strapped for cash, Prime is the product of choice for difficult startup situations. You can always save the generic stuff for use during water changes after the tank is a year out and the bacterial colonies are mature.

~~waterdrop~~

 

[OldMan47]

If you are seeing 1 ppm of ammonia after several water changes try doing something. Draw some water for a water change and treat it with the dechlorinator. Let it sit a few minutes and test it for ammonia. Since the dechlorinator will be splitting the ammonia from the chlorine in any chloramine that you have, you can measure that resulting ammonia level in the new and ready to add tap water. That will give you a clue as to the best that you can hope for in terms of ammonia in the tank water. If you are very close to that number, water changes will not really help the fish much.

 

[Violinist]

I will try that this evening just to see the results. I just took a reading right now, about 8 hours since I did a 50% change this morning, and ammonia is registering 0 on the test chart.

 

[Violinist]

So very irritating. Even with adding cultured media this &^%#$@% tank has still not cycled in over a month. Have just about worn a path into the carpet lugging water back and forth every day.

Ugh...

 

[Truck]

my fish in cycle was just shy of 7 weeks, so I'd sit tight for a while.