Fish In Cycle Advice

[Noako]

Typical newbie - I have found myself in a fish in cycle with a new tank. I understand this is not preferable but this is what I have to deal with.

 
I have read the pinned topics and many of the options are not avaliable to me (it is quite isolated here). So it's me, the fish, water, salt and the test kit (ammonia, nitirite and nitrate).
 
These are my tank stats:
 
Size: 200 litres
 
Dimensions: 100x42x50cm
 
Water stats: ammonia = 0.25-0.5. I am aiming to stay around 0.25 with a big water change if it rises higher.
Nitrite = 0 Nitrate = ??? (I can't work the test kit, I started another thread for this!)
 
pH = ? I am unable to measure this at the moment.
 
Stock = Dozen plants; 12 neon tetras; 3 penguin tetras; 2 rummy nosed tetras; 2 black mollies
 
Fish health = I have lost 2 platys. I am not sure if this was the tank or not as the store I bought them from said there had been problems with their tank (and yes I still bought them?!). One died within a few hours and the other died a few days later.
 
One molly does not look so well - she has problems with staying level. This happened after the first water change (30%). She hasn't got better but she hasn't got worse. She is swimming, eating and pooping.
 
I really do undertand this is not an optimal way to start a tank but I would appreciate any advice (is there something I can do better with my resources; what should my next step be ... bacteria ... pH test)
 
Many thanks for your help!
 

 

[Dreamer03]

I know you might not like this and not trying to be mean. But i think you should return the fish to the fish store. Do a fishless cycle then go get fish. This especially by number of fish you added kinda hard to cycle and stressful for the fish. But really hope the fish make it

 

[Byron]

First on the cycling with fish.  Buy a bottle of bacteria if you possibly can.  Dr. Tim's One and Only is probably the best, but if this is not available look for Tetra's SafeStart.  Seachem's Stability is one I have used.  If none of these, another will be better than nothing.  Second, if you can find them, either Seachem's Prime water conditioner, or one called Ultimate (forgot who makes this).  Both detoxify ammonia and nitrite which will help a lot.
 
A pH test kit will help, but you may be able to ascertain the pH of your water from the municipal water people.  And the GH (general hardness).  This is critical because you have fish that need moderately hard water (mollies, platy if you should want more later), and fish that will be better in softer water.  Once you know the parameters of your source water it will be easier to select suitable fish.
 
Monitor ammonia and be prepared for daily water changes to keep it very low.  If your pH is on the acidic side, meaning below 7.0, you don't have to worry about this as in acidic water ammonia becomes ammonium which is basically harmless.  Test kits for ammonia will still show ammonium as "ammonia," and bacteria will use it the same.  If nitrite appears, do a water change to keep it near-zero.  This is where the afore-mentioned conditioners will help.
 
Mollies are very sensitive to ammonia, and soft water.  Until we know the numbers for GH and pH we can only guess, but the issue (shimmying) could be related to either.
 
Byron.
 
Edit.  Dreamer03 posted while I was typing, and that suggestion is a good one if it is possible.  If not, then follow what I've suggested.  One thing in your favour is the tank size, 200 liters is 50 gallons, and the fish are very few.  The more water volume, the easier the nitrification cycling is on fish.

 

[starlitsunrise]

I agree with both of the above posts. If you can't/don't want to return the fish, I second Byron's recommendation about getting bottled bacteria. I used Dr. Tim's brand and had great results, both times I've bought it I ordered it off of Amazon, but you can also get it on the Dr. Tim's website.

 

[Hunterprey]

Try asking for some mature filter media from your Local Fish Store, it will help.
 
Keep the media submerged in water from they're aquarium while transporting.

 

[Noako]

Thank you for your help.
 
It is a mix of can't/won't return the fish. I got fish from a couple of stores. Some fish I can't return because I have mixed them with sick fish from another store.
 
The fish from sick platy store - I don't want to return. When I bought the platy the store said they had had probelms with the tank. I now recognise there were sick fish in the tank - sat on the bottom, not swimming; which is what my platys did shortly before they died. The store also pointed other fish out in the tank which they wouldn't sell becasue they weren't doing so well - I don't know what the signs were because I didn't know what I was looking for. But they were still happy to sell me two other fish from the tank. I don't want to take any fish back there.
 
I acknowledge that sick platys never stood a chance with a noob and an uncycled tank. But the other fish I don't want to send to a store that cared that little .... ....
 
OK so onto the cycle. I think I am starting to get it.
 

• There needs to be ammonia to start the growth of bacteria. This is why running my empty tank for a week acheived nothing - no ammonia to kick start. In retospect this is where I should have done a fishless cycle. 
• By having fish in the tank I now have a source of ammonia from their waste - but there are insufficient bacteria to process the ammonia. Ammonia levels rise and are toxic to my fish. 
• So far I have managed this by changing the water daily / every other day. This is good for the fishbecuase the ammonia level is lower but is also stressful This is a difficult process to control more like roulette than a science in the hands of a noob
• I can detoxify the ammonia with Prime. This will be good for the fish keeping the ammonia low but then there is less for the bacteria - it will take a long time to get the right number to balance the tank.
• To help I can add bottled bacteria. This will help the bacteria get going with their numbers. This could also be from old media.
• Once the ammonia bacteria levels have grown to the next thing to watch for is nitrite. Nitrite I will control by water changes.
• Eventually the ammonia and nitrite will balance at zero.
• Then I can work out the pH of the water in the tank, complete my schools of tetras and work out if and what there will be any more fish added??

 

[TwoTankAmin]

You need to read the second article on rescuing a fish in cycle here again. http/www.fishforums.net/index.php?/topic/433778-rescuing-a-fish-in-cycle-gone-wild-part-il/ In order to know how toxic any ammonia reading might be requires you know two other parameters- pH and temperature. The pH is the more important of the two. The reading on the test kit for total ammonia is not the most important number, the NH3 content of that reading is. The less ammonia in a cycling tank, the longer the cycle takes. So the goal is to allow the ammonia to get as high as possible without harming the fish.
 
When ammonia goes down, nitrite goes up during a cycle. Remember the ammonia is being converted to nitrite before the nitrite bacs are in place. While salt can be used to blcok nitrite, meaning you rarely need to to do water changes for it, salt will only help a small amount with ammonia. The problem is that most of the fish you have chosen are not especially good with salt. So you really can not have salt in your tank for that length of time and not expect the potential for complications. Tetras are not happy with salt. mollies on the other hand can deal with it and are even able to live in full sw.
 
I would not use Prime to try and blunt things during a cycle. it should be dosed at normal levels for water changes. Despite what many manufacturers claim about their ammonia detoxifiers included in the dechlor, they will slow a cycle. At least that is what the microbiologists will tell you.
 
There are two potential benefits in your setup. The plants and the water changes. The former will take up some of the ammonia but will not make nitrite or nitrate. The water changes will also prevent the build up of nitrate. You best bet is to find bacteria to add to your tank. While i agree on the Dr. Tims and the Tetra Safe Satart, I feel Stability is costly a waste of money. Nitrifying bacteria are the type that do not form spores but rather reproduce by dividing. There are no live bacteria in Stability, only spores. While it may help with other things, it will do very little for adding the desired type of nitrifiers. It may be better than nothing at all. You would be better served by adding more fast growing plants than anything else beside viable live bacteria. The plants normally come with some bacteria living on them as well.

 

[Byron]

Try asking for some mature filter media from your Local Fish Store, it will help.
 
Keep the media submerged in water from they're aquarium while transporting.

 
I must caution that this is not a good idea, ever.  We quarantine new fish and for good reason, to prevent introducing disease and pathogens into our aquarium.  Using substrate is no different.  The last thing one wants is to have a new tank start up and then find the fish all diseased a couple weeks later.
 
The bacterial supplements will seed bacteria, and they are safe.  Many aquarists will not even transfer stuff between their own tanks, but getting it from another source is a real danger.
 
Byron.

I can detoxify the ammonia with Prime. This will be good for the fish keeping the ammonia low but then there is less for the bacteria - it will take a long time to get the right number to balance the tank.
 

 
This is not correct.  Prime is a water conditioner and it detoxifies ammonia by changing it to the harmless ammonium.  This change is permanent.  The "ammonia/ammonium" remains and plants and bacteria take it up just the same.  There is no "less" or anything.
 
I agree with TTA not to use Prime as some sort of medication.  But the point is that it will make ammonia harmless, for as long as it is effective.  Ammonia produced after that period, which is roughly 24-48 hours according to Seachem, may remain as ammonia.
 

To help I can add bottled bacteria. This will help the bacteria get going with their numbers. This could also be from old media.
 

 
 
I would not use media from any other source, as I think I've explained in my previous post.  The bacterial supplements will seed bacteria safely.
 
Now, plants are present, so this is a saviour.  They take up ammonia/ammonium, and they do it faster than nitrifying bacteria.  Fast growing plants, especially floating, are best for this.  This is what some term "silent cycling" because if you have sufficient plants, very few fish, you can actually "cycle" the tank without ever seeing ammonia or nitrite.  This is how I cycle new tanks, or re-set tanks, and have for years.  I've never seen ammonia or nitrite in any of my tanks.
 
Byron.

 

[Noako]

Thank you again for your help and sorry for my confusion. My chemistry is somewhat rusty.
 
I am able to source Prime here. I will get this and use as my water conditioner (not as a treatment).
 
I will look for Dr Tim's. I believe Amazon will ship out here but hopefully I can buy local and save shipping time.
 
You need to read the second article on rescuing a fish in cycle here again. http/www.fishforum...e-wild-part-il/ In order to know how toxic any ammonia reading might be requires you know two other parameters- pH and temperature. The pH is the more important of the two. The reading on the test kit for total ammonia is not the most important number, the NH3 content of that reading is. The less ammonia in a cycling tank, the longer the cycle takes. So the goal is to allow the ammonia to get as high as possible without harming the fish.
 
I have read this article but I am not sure about my test kit. I am using an Aqua One test kit which tests for NH3. There is no mention of total ammonia or NH4. So I am not certain exactly what I am measuring to be honest. The first colour increment is 0.5 but that is about the only clue I have.
 
Today I have ammonia and nitirite levels of 0. So feeling happier - next step will be the Dr Tim's bacteria 
 
Again thank you for your help

 

[TwoTankAmin]

The AquaOne site is not great for info. However, considering .05 ppm of ammonia is the red line and your kit starts at 10 times this, it is either a total ammonia test or else useless for the hobby as most fish in .50 ppm of NH3 would be dead in short order. In a tank kept at 76 F and a low pH of 7.0 it would take a total ammonia reading of 90 ppm to result in .50 ppm (well actually .4966) of NH3
 
Therefore assume you kit reads total ammonia and use the directions in the article based on that.
 
Just an FYI- .50 ppm of total ammonia in the example above would produce .0028 ppm of NH3 which is not harmful to any form of aquatic life. That means fish can tolerate that level of total ammonia for some time- and certainly for a week or two in most cases.

 

[Noako]

Ah ha
 
The numbers make much more sense now - I will get a kit to measure the pH and re-visit your article

 

[Arcticfox1977]

I made the same mistake. I started a fish in cycle. I stumbled across this forum and followed their advice. I lost a small amount of fish rather than a full stock. My tank has now been cycled and healthy for a year and a half. I bought the api water test kit. Tested the water every day. When ammonia reached 0.5 I did a 50-75% water change. This continued for 1 month. After the month the water changes were between 2-4 days. I never ever saw nitrite appear. I continued with water changes for about 4 months before I was fully cycled. I knew I was cycled when there was no reading of ammonia for a full week. Again I never saw nitrite. I had 4-6 real plants in my tank for the cycling. I started with 3 platys. After the month I added tetras. This was the point I lost 1 platy and 4 of the 8 tetras.

It is possible to cycle safely with fish in, however its the long term effects on your fish. I never used bacteria in a bottle as no-one could recommend one that worked at that point. Be prepared to do a lot of water changes for a long time.

Good luck.

 

[Noako]

Update
 
OK first of all things did not go too well - I was too ashamed to come here and post but I got white spot in the tank
 
I tried increasing the temperature and salt but the fish kept getting sicker and the neon tetras started to die (I know they don't like salt but they don't like meds either).
 
I was so upset watching the fish become sick. So I decided to start a white spot treatment. It was a pretty brutal week or so of meds, water changes, abandoned cycle (although I had added cycle basteria I figured the meds would kill those)
 
After a few days of meds sick molly was looking terrible and a few of the neons I think either had fin rot or were being nipped by a penguin. I decided to enthunaise the sick fish and see if I could at least save some of the fish.
 
Well it worked - the remaining fish 4 neons, 1 mollie, 2 rummy nose and 3 penguin tetras survived. Some had had white spot, mollie and penguins never did. After I was sure teh white spot had gone I started diluting out the meds and started the cycle again.
I used the cycle bacteria. I also have learned to consider more than one number and watch the fish. I am sure my ammonia stayed at 0.25 for so long as I kept big water changes and then adding conditioner which may have showed up. So the ammonia is now 0. Then came the nitirite spike but I reduced the temp and added a little salt and after a few days of tracking down today I have readings of 0 ammonia 0 nitirite and 5 nitrate.
 
Got there! Not that I am recommending this way to cycle a tank. I am aware there will be have been consequences for the fish. I note that mollie is now very skittish and hides. And penguin tetra number 1 is territorial. But I am hoping I now have a cycled tank and can start to enjoy the fish

 

[TwoTankAmin]

Now here is some information to make folks who do as described in this thread will not be happy to see.
 
A number of years back when Dr. Hovanec was working on his bacterial stater he did a lot of peer reviewed research and obtained a number of patents. Part of the research process is the use of a control group. For fish related things this means there are tanks of fish which get nothing done at all to/for/with them and serve as a copmaparison for that is done with the experimental group. In his research this meant cycling a number of tanks with fish as it has always been done, this included minimal water changes (possibly none I forget the ext info).
 
So there were a number of new tanks set up (I believe) and stocked and allowed to cycle with fish. The most interesting factor was that all 6 of these control tanks cycled in 5 weeks or less and with 0 loss of fish. But then the people doing this understood all of the factors involved.
 
No first stage of a fish in cycle should take months, it should not take any longer than a full fishless cycle done with no seeding of bacteria or plants. However, the difference is in a fishless cycle the tank develops sufficient bacteria to support a full fish load going in all at once. A fish in cycle is done in stages. So at the end of the fish in a tank will only be fractionally stocked  and the process of getting the tank fully stocked will take many more weeks. But the same 5 -6 week period should apply to both the first stage of a fish in and a full fishless equally.
 
The reason this will not be the case is because of two fish in related factors- starting with too many fish and/or changing tons of water all the time as opposed to what is actually needed in this respect.
 
However, as long as the urban aquarium myths surrounding fish in cycling persists on fish sites, there will continue to be people who have serious issues with the process.

 

[Noako]

"No first stage of a fish in cycle should take months"
 
I think the cycle took just over 3 weeks from when I removed the white spot med (Feb 24th) through to March 16th or thereabouts. I assumed that the white spot med would also kill off the bacteria from the cycle as well. I did remove part of the filter, although that was probably redundent, whether the carbon was active or not, but replaced it and used the bottled bacteria as of the 16th March.
 
I watched my water stats for another week and they stayed ammonia 0 nitrite 0 and nitrate 5 (there is no nitrate from my tap water)
 
I added fish (10 neon tetras and 3 penguin tetras) a week ago and the water stats have stayed as above. I don't see a problem with stocking slowly - I'm getting to see learn the fish and gives me time to consider each purchase.
 
The black mollie is now much less skittish - she will come up to the tank corner for food. She hides for a water change. I am onyl doing a 30% every 2 weeks due to the low nitrates (thoughts on this?). My confusion with the large water changes came from reading posts about sick fish and the advice from there about large water changes, as well as not having all the resources to measure pH etc at the start.
 
Again this isn't a way I would recommend to start a tank, worrying about the best course of action and worrying about whether I was helping or harming the fish. I've done what I have felt was best given the situation, resources and knowledge that I have had but next tank .... fishless!