First Tank - Pet Shop Wrong?

[DJackson]

Hi guys,

I'm new to tropical fish tank keeping and I'm hoping for a little guidance.
My Dad has kept them for years, and he lent me a few books to get started before jumping in.

I have a 50L tank which I set up and began fish less cycling as per a lot of information I'd read.
I have two pieces of bog wood, and a plant. At this stage, it had only been going a week.
I went to a local store to purchase a new plant as it was a little sparse. I hadn't been there before as I moved house recently, and started the tank soon after.

I asked a lot of questions to compare the information I'd been reading, and the fish store advised to get 8 starter fish.
I discussed what I'd read about fish less cycling, and he assured me that the best thing to do in practice was in fact to purchase 8 small fish, and test/20% change daily until the cycling has completed.
I questioned whether 8 would be too many even for fish cycling, and he assured me this was not a problem provided I tested and changed the water as required.
He advised that fish less cycling is not necessary and takes about two months. (I've read that's not the case).

So against my better judgement I did what he said and purchased 4 neons and 4 x-ray tetras (still young, just over 1cm).

They were understandably stressed yesterday and I've kept a very close eye on how they're behaving as I feel that it was not correct advise to buy 8 fish while the tank is in such early stage of cycling.

Today, they are not very active and are sat at the bottom of the tank. They don't appear to be gasping, rather just quite inactive.
The ammonia is very low, nitrites are apparently 0 while the nitrates are at 10mg/l.
The water is a little too acidic I think? It's at 6.4.
General hardness is 0.
Chlorine is 0
Temperature is 25'c.

As far as I can tell, everything is ok for now, but I'm going to have to keep a very close eye over the next few weeks.
I've changed 20% of the water this morning, and will do so every day until the cycle is complete.

With regards to their activity, do you think it's just the stress of moving to a new tank?
Anything else that I need to keep an eye on would be great.
Also I'm curious as to whether the fish store advise was actually correct.


Many thanks guys!

 

[Staxx]

it depends. fishless cycles, silent cycles and stuf like that. what i can understand is relatively new to the fish keeping world. most people are so used to just getting a tank. putting fish in it. and changing the water a fishless cycle is alien to them. they dont see the point in a empty tank for anything from a month to 2 months.

dont let the ammonia get passed 0.25ppm. just keep up with the water changes and itll soon be over. i wouldnt purchase anymore fish in the cycle time either.

 

[Livewire88]

Hi and welcome to the forum.

The person you spoke to in the fish shop succeeded in what they set out to do and that was to sell you fish.
It also sounds like you already know about fishless cycling so I dont need to tell you if you were given the correct advice or not.

 

[the_lock_man]

It's very difficult to completely go against what a professional fish expert in a shop tells you to do, I completely sympathise, but yes, IMO, it was not correct advice.

What type of test do you have, liquid or paper strips? Looking at the results you've posted, I would suspect the fish's behaviour is partly stress from the move and partly stress from feeling the affects of ammonia poisoning. Even a level as low as 0.5ppm is highly toxic.

It sounds as though you are right at the start of the cycle, and with a 50l tank, ammonia and nitrite levels can cahnge very very quickly, especially with 8 tetras in there. You will need to test every day, and be prepared to do MASSIVE water changes every day. If you test your water, and the ammonia level is at 3.0ppm, if you change 20%, you will reduce that level down to 2.4ppm. That difference is neglible as far as the fish are concerned, they're still suffering big time.

You need to keep those ammonia and nitrite levels down below 0.25ppm at all times.

Have a read of the link in the grey text in my signature area, it gives a bit more detail on the "what" and "why" than I've given there.

And feel free to ask any more questions you like. You're not the first person to be in this situation and I'm pretty sure you won't be the last. The only silly question is the one that remains unasked.

 

[DJackson]

Thanks for your replies, I'm now of the opinion he was just trying to sell me some fish.
In hindsight I should have listened to what I'd learnt not what I was being told.

I'm using paper strips at the moment, which seem quite easy to read. The ammonia is somewhere in between 0 and 0.5.
I think I'd like to find an ammonia strip that's a little more sure of itself though. 0 and 0.5 is a big gap. I'm using King British.

The fish are a little more active but still very docile.
I expect I'll do another change later on just to make sure.
I'm working all day tomorrow so I won't have time to do a change in the morning and they'll be left all day, so I think it would be better to do a good change this evening.

Thanks for your help.
And I'm sure many more beginner questions will follow!

 

[the_lock_man]

I'm using paper strips at the moment, which seem quite easy to read. The ammonia is somewhere in between 0 and 0.5.
I think I'd like to find an ammonia strip that's a little more sure of itself though. 0 and 0.5 is a big gap. I'm using King British.

There aren't any!

You need a liquid drop kit. The most popular are the API and the Nutrafin (I would personally recommend the Nutrafin as that's what I use, but most regular forum members will recommend the API).

The paper tests are notoriously unreliable, and you're in a situation where you need a bit more accuracy than they can provide.

The API test will set you back around £20 on Ebay. Nutrafin have a mini-master kit for roughly the same price, but has less tests.

 

[Llegmore]

I'm using paper strips at the moment, which seem quite easy to read. The ammonia is somewhere in between 0 and 0.5.
I think I'd like to find an ammonia strip that's a little more sure of itself though. 0 and 0.5 is a big gap. I'm using King British.

In my experience, liquid test kits are a lot more reliable (and make you feel more scientific) when it comes to ammonia levels. It's better to be safe than sorry.

You've done the right thing in seeking advice. I hope it all goes well for ya.

 

[fluttermoth]

Does your dad stll have any tanks, OP?

If he does, you could 'borrow' some of his filter media to seed yours and your cycle will be more or less instant, as well as being far safer for your fish

 

[DJackson]

I'll check the test kit out, I certainly don't feel comfortable with the test strips.
My Dad decided to sell up about two years ago after keeping tropical fish for 20+ years. He's moved onto pond fish now. Unfortunately from an advise point of view he's doing the 'I can't remember' thing. I suspect old age is catching up.. Though he's planning on re reading all of his old books to jog his memory.

I'll keep you all posted on any issues. For the moment they're ok anyway so fingers crossed.

Regarding speeding up the cycling due to having some stock, I'm going to get some media for the filter. I think its called AquaSafe SafeStart?

I had it all planned for fish less cycling and now I feel it's all a little forced. Live and learn - I won't be making the same mistake with future tanks.

 

[delta]

You can take comfort from the fact that you are not alone and many of us have ended up fish-in cycling thanks to bad advice from LFS's. I've only been a member here a relatively short time and have learned so much, plus the guys on here are sympathetic rather than judgemental. Hopefully all of your fish (and you) will come through alive and well. Do keep us updated

 

[pdludbrooke]

I'll check the test kit out, I certainly don't feel comfortable with the test strips.
My Dad decided to sell up about two years ago after keeping tropical fish for 20+ years. He's moved onto pond fish now. Unfortunately from an advise point of view he's doing the 'I can't remember' thing. I suspect old age is catching up.. Though he's planning on re reading all of his old books to jog his memory.

I'll keep you all posted on any issues. For the moment they're ok anyway so fingers crossed.

Regarding speeding up the cycling due to having some stock, I'm going to get some media for the filter. I think its called AquaSafe SafeStart?

I had it all planned for fish less cycling and now I feel it's all a little forced. Live and learn - I won't be making the same mistake with future tanks.

You can use some of his pond filter media to seed your filter in your aquarium. You will need to get the bacteria used to the warmer temperature though... maybe do this in a bucket of treated water and a spare heater, as long as you don't shock the bacteria from the pond with temp changes or very different water (pH etc)... (and there are no diseases from your pond)

 

[the_lock_man]

Regarding speeding up the cycling due to having some stock, I'm going to get some media for the filter. I think its called AquaSafe SafeStart?

That's not filter media, filter media is the sponges, ceramics, etc., from within the filter.

The SafeStart stuff supposedly contains the beneficial bacteria. I am sure that when the bottle leaves the factory, it contains those bacteria, because the Sale of Goods Act says so. Whether it contains any when it's been on the LFS shelf shelf for a few weeks, who knows? Many on the forum have little faith in the majority of these products. From my own experience, when I used a similar product, it seemed to make no appreciable difference.

 

[DJackson]

Ah ok, that does make sense depending on the bacteria it contains. I used to be a microbiologist so I'll have to do a bit of research into the particular bacteria it uses, and determine whether these things would actually be viable upon receipt. Although if you guys don't have much faith in them then I doubt it'll be worth purchasing.

I didn't know I could use pond filter media - I'll get onto that!

Fish are much more lively today and aren't sitting at the bottom. I did a 20% change yesterday morning and a 50% water change in the evening.
Nitrites 0.5 and nitrates 10
Ammonia is a suspicious 0 on two tests this morning pre water change.

I'll probably do a 20% before work and 20% later this evening.

Ph is 6.4 or below. Kh is middle ground and general hardness is about 25.

 

[Alm0stAwesome]

You may find nitrite more difficult to keep at 0 than ammonia so now that you're getting nitrite readings be extra diligent I've seen some new members let the nitrite get away from them with fish-in cycling so thought I would warn you

 

[DJackson]

I've just tested the water after getting home from work - nitrates have spiked. This morning they were very low. Suddenly they are at the top end of the test strip, while the nitrites are the same as previous. Ammonia still no change, though Im beginning to think that the strips are simply not working.

Is it normal for nitrates to spike so suddenly with no spike in the pre-nitrates (ammonia and nitrites)?