Euthanasia

[Tempestuousfury]

I can't find a pinned article on it in the tropical emergency section. Granted, I am relatively tired now at 3 a.m. and half-a**ed it, so if I am correct, then could we have one made (thought I thought we had a pinned thread before...)

 

[Bloo]

The problem might lie in that it's so controversial and people (even mods!) seem to have widely differing opinions. So it would have to be someone who can objectively list all methods and preferably tested by them too.

 

[Tempestuousfury]

I nominate nmonks.

But, IMO, it is better to have the more humane forms listed. I mean, the existence of the thread and the dispersal of the information will not necessarily make it easier for people to kill their fish. If they really wanted to, they could just as easily toss the fish out.

 

[Annastasia]

I can't find a pinned article on it in the tropical emergency section. Granted, I am relatively tired now at 3 a.m. and half-a**ed it, so if I am correct, then could we have one made (thought I thought we had a pinned thread before...)

http/www.fishforums.net/index.php?showtopic=8031

 

[Bloo]

But the "problem" with that is that someone like Steelhealr (a surgeon) advocates freezing. That pinned topic clearly states that as cruel and unacceptable.

I think if something is pinned, it should be objective.

 

[Tempestuousfury]

And it being in FAQ form threw me off, so I take it that the same would occur to others who don't care to wade through pages of text to find what they are looking for.

Thanks for finding it, though.

 

[steelhealr]

Bloo...I don't advocate freezing. I advocate rapid and dramatic ice immersion. There is a BIG difference. Freezing is slow and inhumane. The former, IMO, brings on rapid unconsciousness and deadening of neural impulses, ie, pain.The most popular method of euthanizing here (oil of cloves) is:

1) not accepted by the AVMA (American Veterinary Medicine Association) as humane

2) there are NO studies to support that oil of cloves is humane nor on how long it takes for a fish to lose consciousness, ie. the two parts to a humane euthanasia are unconsciousness and pain relief, or, anethesia and analgesia.

3) the humane methods of fish euthanasia are not easily or ordinarily available to the average fish owner

4) current recommended methods are passed on by word of mouth, popularity, forums, etc without scientific method or support

My above comments are not made to support my method, but, to support the comment above that euthanasia is a hot, highly debatable topic and that the majority of methods being used here have NOT BEEN STUDIED ENOUGH TO SUPPORT ONE METHOD. In view of such, I think topics on euthanasia are best left to the open forum and that individual TFF members should choose a method that 'works for them' and is the best method available for them to use that they feel is a dignified way to end their animal's suffering. JMO. SH

 

[Bloo]

You're absolutely right. And therefore I think the pro's and con's should be given in that pinned thread. It's quite clearly written to support the most popular method. But perhaps if someone is presented with all methods (not just ones that are discounted) they can make their own educated decision

What I'm trying to say is that I think the pinned topic should be modified to present those views.

 

[steelhealr]

You're absolutely right. And therefore I think the pro's and con's should be given in that pinned thread. It's quite clearly written to support the most popular method. But perhaps if someone is presented with all methods (not just ones that are discounted) they can make their own educated decision

What I'm trying to say is that I think the pinned topic should be modified to present those views.

Done..now bloo...my reasoning is the same as yours. My MAIN thoughts here are that, as written, our members should not be forced into what many people feel is the ONLY method to put their fish to sleep, but, should have CHOICE without feeling guilty. Thanks for your support. I think that, considering the popularity of keeping aquariums, someone should study this and perhaps come up with a method easily available for home use. Cheers. SH

 

[Bloo]

Bloo...I don't advocate freezing. I advocate rapid and dramatic ice immersion. There is a BIG difference.

Sorry about getting that part wrong - or not wording it correctly. I understand the difference

Thanks for giving another view in the pinned topic

 

[steelhealr]

To keep the pin balanced, I will post some links to various discussions on euthanasia. Those that are interested in pursuing it, can read them. Thanks for your input. SH

 

[RandomWiktor]

I personally am a fan of clove oil. It contains a naturally anesthetic compound, which suggests it does indeed numb the fish. I think the main issue right now is the argument over the dosage; many people have suggested a few drops per gallon, as well as mixing with Vodka, neither of which result in a quick death. I have found that by making the clove oil about 1/4 of the total volume of fluid used to euthanize, the fish is almost immediately paralyzed, the breathing stops within seconds of the paralysis, and the fish dies very rapidly. Granted it is not a scientifically proven method... but it certainly seems very quick and very painless to the casual observer compared to freezing.
My issue with decapitation is that cold blooded animals survive for a bit after being decapitated. I think destruction of the brain, as mentioned above, is more humane, though I'm sure most fish owners are too squeamish for it. Not to mention that an inexperienced had could caused a prolonged and painful death for the fish.

I like the idea of a sticky with all of the methods, though, so that people can choose. They all have their pros and cons; a thread with acceptable methods (ie. not blatantly cruel ones like flushing) presented in a non-biased fashion would be wonderful.

 

[steelhealr]

My issue with oil of cloves is: ..paralysis..yes...cessation of GILL MOVEMENT...yes...decreased pain..yes...unconsciousness...UNKNOWN!!!!!!! .

Most animals know fear. To be paralyzed and conscious is one of the most frightening experiences any animal can experience. Top that with asyphyxiation. I can't use oil of cloves. It has just NOT been scientifically proven that it brings on unconsciousness rapidly. SH

 

[docbanzai]

Hi, sorry to leap in uninvited but...
I had to euth a couple of very sick fish recently. I did a ton of research and have decided that for me (and I emphasise ME) I settled on the rapid cold immersion method. This is NOT slow freezing, which would be horrible beyond words, but a rapid chilling in iced water. My experience was that the fish succumbed in less than two seconds and showed no activity during or after the experience.
The 'Oil Of Cloves' and 'Vodka' methods seem to cause more problems than they solve. I've seen many posts from traumatised owners who have used this method and note that it can take some time for this slow-poisoning to be effective. Even then; is the fish dead or just anesthetised? I'm sure that the 'bash-on-the-head' is probably the most efficient of all, but I just can't do it. Also there are the practical considerations of trying to catch and 'bash' a 1" fish. Would it really result in less stress for the creature? I think not. It may work better for larger fish, but my experience is only with smaller species.
It strikes me that any fish that is so ill it needs to be euthanised will die very easily. I'm sorry if that sounds harsh, but I know that I will always do whatever I can to save a sick creature but sometimes there are no alternatives but to put it out of its misery as quickly and painlessly as I (beleive) I can.
Just my opinion.
Regards,
DB.

 

[steelhealr]

Thanks and I agree with you. Rapid reduction in temperature for TROPICAL fish most likely brings on rapid unconsciousness; cold reduces neural transmission...both producing anesthesia AND analgesia. I truly believe that oil of cloves brings on paralysis without unconsciousness, ie, conscious asphyxiation. SH