Endler's Livebearer in 6.6 PH

Amayapuppy

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Hello, I've had my first endlers for about a month now. They're in a 20 gallon tank with a betta splenden, blue velvet shrimp, and red crystal shrimp. I have 12 endlers.
My ph is 6.6, I've heard lower ph on hardwater fish can cause organ failure and shorten their lifespan, is this going to happen to my endlers?
When I got the red crystal shrimp I didn't realize they were so drastically different from neos, and I worry raising the ph will kill it. I've also read numerous sources saying 6.4-8.0 for endlers works fine but I've also had people tell me it's not safe, am I over worrying?
What I mostly want to know is if the 6.6 ph is making my endlers suffer or if its actually okay for them but not ideal. Thank you for the help!
 

essjay

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It is hardness rather than pH which affects fish. A pH of 6.6 usually goes with soft water. Look on your water provider's website for hardness - you need a number and the unit of measurement rather than vague words.

Endlers, and the other common livebearers, need hard water. They have evolved in hard water - water with a lot of calcium and magnesium in it. Because of all the minerals, they evolved so that their bodies can remove all the excess minerals. When they are kept in soft water, their bodies still keep removing the minerals, but there is not enough in the water to replace them so they suffer from mineral depletion. This stresses them and they get sick more easily.

To be honest, bettas are best kept alone. Some can be kept with shrimps, others attack and kill shrimps - I've had both types.

If your harness is low, there is something you can do. Buy another tank and keep the betta in one and the endlers in the other. Add Rift Lake cichlid salts to the tank with the endlers to make the water harder and leave the water in the betta's tank as it is now. If you don't want another 20 gallon, bettas can be kept in 5 gallon tanks.
Crystal shrimps can be kept in softer water - leave them with the betta. Blue velvet can live in harder water with the endlers.
 

emeraldking

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Well, I do have to say that endlers don´t really have problems when kept in softer water. Real endlers have a wide margin when it comes to hardness. Also short tailed guppies will do well in softer water in comparison to guppies with big fins. But there are way more livebearers that will do perfectly in softer water. Not all livebearers need hard water. You just need to know which ones requires hard water.
 

essjay

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I was a bit concerned that with a pH of 6.6 the hardness could be very low. How low is safe for endlers?


I usually put the word 'common' before the word 'livebearers', meaning the ones found in just about every fish store.
I know that the rarer livebearers can be different, but as I know little about them I prefer not to comment on the rarer ones.
 

Byron

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Emeraldking knows a great deal about livebearers, and i have no intention of getting into an "argument" over water parameters for Endlers :no:. However, I have myself carried out research when I wrote a profile of this species for another site, and what follows is the data collected. These citations are from my profile on TFK.

Poecilia (Acanthophacelus) wingei
Family: Poeciliidae, Subfamily Poeciliinae. This livebearer closely resembles the common guppy, Poecilia reticulata, and some authors have considered both to be the same species. The two species do hybridize and produce fertile offspring. However, Schories et al. (2009) determined that P. wingei is now unequivocally defined by the molecular phylogeny as a valid species. A third distinct guppy species is described from Trinidad (Schories et al, 2009). The three guppy species have been placed in the sub-genus Acanthophacelus that is considered to be generically different from all other taxa in the Poeciliinae subfamily.​
Common Names: Endler's Livebearer, Endler Guppy​
Origin and Habitat: Northeast Venezuela, endemic to Campoma and Buena Vista coastal lagoons. The source for the type specimens is a warm freshwater lake with hard, alkaline water on the Paria Peninsula.​
Water parameters: Medium hard to hard (10-35 dGH), basic (pH 7-8), temperature 24-30C/75-86F. As with all livebearers, it must not be maintained in soft, acidic water.​

Seriously Fish has the following:

This is a moderately hard water fish and while it may manage in soft and/or acidic conditions, long-term maintenance should be in moderately hard or harder water.​
pH: 7.0 – 8.5​
Hardness: 15 – 35°H​

Some years ago I ended up with a pair of Endlers, and they were kept in a 20g tank with very soft and acidic water. They did not live longer than a few months, and spawned several times, but the fry also did not live beyond a few months. I am fairly certain it was the GH and pH. I gave the last fry away as I felt this was inhumane to the fish.
 
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Amayapuppy

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Thank you everyone for your advice, I'm still not sure on the steps I'm going to take, obviously if they start dying off though I'm going to raise the hardness. I'm getting a GH test kit so I can look further into if its alright or not. My betta temperament wise has done perfectly fine with my endlers, so I'm not worried about that, he pays them no attention.
I'd like to add all of them are male, so the reproduction shouldn't cause stress on their lifespans
 

Byron

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Thank you everyone for your advice, I'm still not sure on the steps I'm going to take, obviously if they start dying off though I'm going to raise the hardness. I'm getting a GH test kit so I can look further into if its alright or not. My betta temperament wise has done perfectly fine with my endlers, so I'm not worried about that, he pays them no attention.
I'd like to add all of them are male, so the reproduction shouldn't cause stress on their lifespans
You can save money by not getting a GH test, as you may onlyuse it the once. Find the GH for your tap water, check the website of the water authority; GH will not alter much in tyhe aquarium and this source water GH is all you need to decide on suitable fish.
 

emeraldking

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I was a bit concerned that with a pH of 6.6 the hardness could be very low. How low is safe for endlers?


I usually put the word 'common' before the word 'livebearers', meaning the ones found in just about every fish store.
I know that the rarer livebearers can be different, but as I know little about them I prefer not to comment on the rarer ones.
In general it's considered being safe (and also from my own experience) starting from a pH of 6.2. A serious number of endler hybrids starts higher. For it seems that the guppy influence is stronger in an average endler hybrid. And don't worry, I've read the word "common"... I know what you meant.. :)
Emeraldking knows a great deal about livebearers, and i have no intention of getting into an "argument" over water parameters for Endlers :no:. However, I have myself carried out research when I wrote a profile of this species for another site, and what follows is the data collected. These citations are from my profile on TFK.

Poecilia (Acanthophacelus) wingei
Family: Poeciliidae, Subfamily Poeciliinae. This livebearer closely resembles the common guppy, Poecilia reticulata, and some authors have considered both to be the same species. The two species do hybridize and produce fertile offspring. However, Schories et al. (2009) determined that P. wingei is now unequivocally defined by the molecular phylogeny as a valid species. A third distinct guppy species is described from Trinidad (Schories et al, 2009). The three guppy species have been placed in the sub-genus Acanthophacelus that is considered to be generically different from all other taxa in the Poeciliinae subfamily.​
Common Names: Endler's Livebearer, Endler Guppy​
Origin and Habitat: Northeast Venezuela, endemic to Campoma and Buena Vista coastal lagoons. The source for the type specimens is a warm freshwater lake with hard, alkaline water on the Paria Peninsula.​
Water parameters: Medium hard to hard (10-35 dGH), basic (pH 7-8), temperature 24-30C/75-86F. As with all livebearers, it must not be maintained in soft, acidic water.​

Seriously Fish has the following:

This is a moderately hard water fish and while it may manage in soft and/or acidic conditions, long-term maintenance should be in moderately hard or harder water.​
pH: 7.0 – 8.5​
Hardness: 15 – 35°H​

Some years ago I ended up with a pair of Endlers, and they were kept in a 20g tank with very soft and acidic water. They did not live longer than a few months, and spawned several times, but the fry also did not live beyond a few months. I am fairly certain it was the GH and pH. I gave the last fry away as I felt this was inhumane to the fish.
Of course, everyone has got his/her own experience with endlers (or other livebearers for that matter). If a certain way of keeping and maintaining them works, don't change it...
Overhere certain tanks have a lower pH and the rest neutral till higher. Looking at the tanks with a lower pH still have an average lifespan of 1,5-2 years overhere. I do have to mention that in the tanks with a lower pH, the fish that got in started as young fish. Younger fish get adjusted much easier than adults. Same thing as when I keep livebearers outdoors., I always use younger fish for a better adjustment in a short time. At this moment I've got Campoma nr.3 endlers outdoors. In that tub the pH is 6.4. But there are leaves on the bottom that lowered the pH. They do well.

Offically there are 4 guppy families in the wild:
Poecilia reticulata
Poecilia obscura (also known as Oropuche guppy)
Poecilia kempkesi
Poecilia wingei

Eventhough, Poecilia wingei is considered not being a guppy (but related), the Poecilia wingei is considered being a member of the guppy family. That's why it's mentioned in the summary.

And there's a subgenus of Poecilia close related to the guppies: Micropoecilia.
 
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Amayapuppy

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In general it's considered being safe (and also from my own experience) starting from a pH of 6.2. A serious number of endler hybrids starts higher. For it seems that the guppy influence is stronger in an average endler hybrid. And don't worry, I've read the word "common"... I know what you meant.. :)

Of course, everyone has got his/her own experience with endlers (or other livebearers for that matter). If a certain way of keeping and maintaining them works, don't change it...
Overhere certain tanks have a lower pH and the rest neutral till higher. Looking at the tanks with a lower pH still have an average lifespan of 1,5-2 years overhere. I do have to mention that in the tanks with a lower pH, the fish that got in started as young fish. Younger fish get adjusted much easier than adults. Same thing as when I keep livebearers outdoors., I always use younger fish for a better adjustment in a short time. At this moment I've got Campoma nr.3 endlers outdoors. In that tub the pH is 6.4. But there are leaves on the bottom that lowered the pH. They do well.

Offically there are 4 guppy families in the wild:
Poecilia reticulata
Poecilia obscura (also known as Oropuche guppy)
Poecilia kempkesi
Poecilia wingei

Eventhough, Poecilia wingei is considered not being a guppy (but related), the Poecilia wingei is considered being a member of the guppy family. That's why it's mentioned in the summary.

And there's a subgenus of Poecilia close related to the guppies: Micropoecilia.
What I have is, I believe, Poecilia wingei and not a hybrid (Though its possible they're a hybrid and I'm just not knowledgeable on how hybrids work/what they look like), I'm pretty new to pH/Hardness (I've kept mostly domestic bettas so this hasn't really been a concern). I ended up getting a GH/KH test kit, it tested at 3 for GH and 2 for KH, which I know is pretty low for endlers, is this still okay?
 

essjay

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If you bought it from a fish store, it will be a hybrid. To get pure endlers you usually have to buy them from a breeder.

I'll leave the GH for @emeraldking to comment on.
 

Byron

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You have very soft water (in Washington state this is the case west of the mountains, same from Oregon up to SW BC where I am). Why not save yourself a lot of headache, and save the poor fish, and select species that will thrive in this water? There are many.

The other thing is you have a male Betta splendens, and this is a big mnistake to combine with other fish especially Endlers that are colourful. Bettas are not community fish.
 
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Amayapuppy

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You have very soft water (in Washington state this is the case west of the mountains, same from Oregon up to SW BC where I am). Why not save yourself a lot of headache, and save the poor fish, and select species that will thrive in this water? There are many.

The other thing is you have a male Betta splendens, and this is a big mnistake to combine with other fish especially Endlers that are colourful. Bettas are not community fish.
I already own my endlers which come from a LFS. Just because I live somewhere with different water doesn't mean I don't want to put in the effort of making my fish comfortable and happy, theres ways to adjust it and I don't see why I can't do that?
I personally really disagree, my bettas have been wonderful community fish, theres been no issue with my endlers and my betta and I'm really not concerned about that but thank you.
 

Byron

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I already own my endlers which come from a LFS. Just because I live somewhere with different water doesn't mean I don't want to put in the effort of making my fish comfortable and happy, theres ways to adjust it and I don't see why I can't do that?
I personally really disagree, my bettas have been wonderful community fish, theres been no issue with my endlers and my betta and I'm really not concerned about that but thank you.
Yes, hardening water is relatively simple, compared to the opposite. You can use a calcareous substrate, and/or add rift lake mineral salts.

I don't mind people disagreeing with me, but that does not mean my advice on "x" topic may not still be scientifically correct. And in this case, it is. Betta splendens are not community fish. Having said that, there are always exceptions; the fish for whatever reason may not adhere to the norm for the species, this is common in all animals up to and including humans. That there are exceptions does not negate the generality, and I always think it wiser to assume the fish we acquire will be normal, rather than risking it in the hopes that it will be abnormal for the species.

Thre have been a few threads over the past months from Betta owners who risked their fish in a community tank, and assumed all was fine for weeks, even months...until they awoke one morning to find the Betta killing the other fish. The inherent traits of a species are programmed into the DNA, and none of us is going to change that. And I do not consider it humane to force a fish into a situation which is contrary to what it "expects" or even needs to be healthy. Some disagree with this too, but that does not invalidate the fact.
 

emeraldking

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What I have is, I believe, Poecilia wingei and not a hybrid (Though its possible they're a hybrid and I'm just not knowledgeable on how hybrids work/what they look like), I'm pretty new to pH/Hardness (I've kept mostly domestic bettas so this hasn't really been a concern). I ended up getting a GH/KH test kit, it tested at 3 for GH and 2 for KH, which I know is pretty low for endlers, is this still okay?
My apologies for the belated reply. Been at the hospital for a few days.

Well, a lot of stores also use the name "Poecilia wingei" for endler hybrids. Officially that would be incorrect to use that name. But a lot of stores think it's more interesting and also a selling point to use "Poecilia wingei".
So, I don't know wether you're having pure ones or hybrids. The parameters you've mentioned should be higher. It's already been mentioned overhere by other how to increase the hardness.
 

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