Dog Control Laws And Pit Bulls

[Tolak]

In the States, 2 daschunds dragged a baby out of a playpen and killed it. A cocker spaniel ripped it's elderly owner's throat out. My son was mauled, and permanently facially scarred, by a greyhound. My Bullmastiff was attacked 2 months ago in the park and wounded by a collie cross with irresponsible owners. I've been badly bitten by a Jack Russel. My old foster Staffie was badly wounded in an attack by a mongrel in which he was too frightened to fight back and urinated on the pavement as it tore into his face (this case went to court and we were awarded damages). I bet if I called for any of these breeds to be banned (which I wouldn't as I'm sensible), you'd get off your backside and fight that.

I totally agree with this statement, as the most dangerous dog I personally know of is the one I own right now.

Ozzy is a Cairn terrier who turned 15 last August, and for the last year or so has been getting more senile bit by bit. Since he is now deaf as well as half blind the world confuses him at times, especially when he first wakes up, or is woken up abruptly. It takes him a minute or so of being awake to make sense of what is happening around him, and sometimes he wakes up startled for no apparent reason.

Oz has always been a people dog, the kids are in their late teens to mid 20's, and they grew up together. He has always been the type of dog that never backs down from a fight, but always got along with dogs that were about his size or smaller. He has always seen larger dogs as a threat, and has somehow evaded any serious injury in the few encounters he has had with the likes of my mom's Great Pyrenees. He has always been protective of the kids, shagging off kids that were starting fights in years gone past. His fight or flight response is 90% fight when provoked. Typical terrier.

When he wakes up startled he often goes into fight mode, lashing out & snarling for several seconds to a minute, until he figures out that nothing is going on. The vet attributes this to his age, along with senility slowly progressing. Many times he will go after whatever his shadow lands on, as with his vision problem it’s the only thing he sees moving. Plenty of times while I’m posting on here he will be sleeping at my feet, wake up startled, and go into momentary attack mode. If I move my feet he will go after them, but can’t do a whole lot of damage due to having about a third of his teeth extracted. If I stay still he goes after his shadow, or something else that looks like it provoked him.

If you don’t understand this situation about this dog as my family members & I do, you could be potentially hurt, especially if you are a younger kid. Anyone can out walk this dog when he gets this way, his top speed is about 2 mph, and when he advances in attack mode as we call it, he slows down to about 0.2 mph. If you walk away when he gets this way, give him a minute to calm down, he realizes he is going off for no reason, gets a sort of sheepish look, and is back to his normal self.

The reason for this longish dog story is that any dog, no matter what the breed, is an individual, and needs to be treated as such. In years gone past I’ve has a westie, a yorkie, and grew up with a miniature poodle. They all lived for 14-16 years, and none had this senility problem. Just because a dog is well adjusted to the kids or other situations now doesn’t insure that it will be that way it’s entire life, no matter what the breed. I’m sure if my dog was sleeping & a 6 year old kid went up to pet it he would wake up furious, and could probably do some severe damage to a younger kid with smaller limbs and such. It’s my personal responsibility to make sure this doesn’t happen, and thankfully other family members understand and help to share this responsibility.

Laws will never encompass every possibility, they are too numerous. Personal responsibility comes closer to covering those possibilities than any laws ever can.

 

[KathyM]

What a fantastic reply Tolak. Sounds like Ozzy is very lucky to have such a responsible and caring owner.

My partner Baz (who is partially sighted and can't type for himself on here) would also like to point out that the only dog he's ever been bitten by was a Jack Russell.

 

[LisaLQ]

As much as I like bull breeds, rotties, dobes, GSD etc. If it comes down to a BSL being enforced upon them so that the majority of dog owners can enjoy their dogs as usual, then I'm all for it.
I keep hearing
"oh that won't work, Oh that won't work" when nobody ever seems to say "here is a solution to the problem"

I find that comment absolutely shocking considering it comes from someone who claims to work in rescue. If your Giant Schnauzer was being banned, you'd no doubt have a very different view.

Well, there's lots of bull breed, rottie and the like owners who love their dogs as much as you love yours - and to say that doesn't count because of their breed is just appalling. Well, as long as you're ok, screw the rest of the people who love their pets too.

Personally, having been far too close to the biting end of a schnauzer before, my view is rather different to yours - but I know all dogs are made by their owners. And I would never wish a ban on anyone's dog - whatever their breed.

As for foreign objects being injected into dogs, let's hope your dog never goes missing or is stolen...incidentally, most good rescues will insist on microchipping before rehoming.

 

[TigerIssey]

Not many of the chavs would own one of these bacuse of the £1000 price tag compared with as little as £150 for a rotties or staffie pup but they are similar in temperament to a rottie

A stafford for that money needs questioning anyway the rate for a KC registered stafford pup is actually around the 500 - 600 pound mark. Those that are advertised for less have questionable breeding anyhow. If it cannot be KC registered, it is not to be considered a pedigree dog, anything could have been bred in there.

They might be of questionable breeding but they are still purebred. Even if they aren't KC reg 2 purebred dogs put together will produce purebred pups. The KC reg is only for verifying the parentage and to allow dogs to be shown at KC organised shows. The problem is that there are more backyard breeders who have a purebred ***** who put it with any old purebred dog to produce a cash crop. They know practically nothing about dog and don't ask potential buyers anything at all. They are only interested in the money. That's where a lot of the problem dogs come from. If you go to a website like 'Loot' you will find plenty of unregistered purebred pups . Have a look here for example staffy pups

or here
rotties and crosses

I'm afraid I cannot agree that a chihuahua can cause as much damage as a rottweiller or staffie.

We are in agreement about what 'should' happen such as:
"Any owner or potential owner approaching a reputable breeder SHOULD have to go through a series of interviews with the breeder re there suitablity. I also believe that dogs should not be bred if you don't already have a list of people waiting for puppies (the list of people you have interviewed and deemed suitable). As such a dog would not then be advertised in the local paper!!
Breeders of the dog breeds you consider as 'macho' should be finding out whether these people are suitable before handing over a puppy."
but the fact remains that in most cases, even among top breeders who are licenced, or who show, this simply does not always happen and in the case of BYB these almost certainly does not happen since they are only interested in making money.

I know how the KC registration system works, I also however know that unless you have a kc pedigree you cannot guarantee a dog is purebred, especially if there was an outcross to another breed a couple of generations back.
This is exactly why the amnesties of such dogs should be stopped immediately, because of these dogs, we are actually trying to save them by stopping BSL from coming into force. So many of these dogs are bred however only a handfull, as in most breeds actually ever turn nasty. Most dogs of all breeds are dogs that are leading exlemplary lives however only certain breeds are highlighted in the news. A small dog could also kill a baby, babies are completely helpless.

What WILL work are the new laws being written that are NOT breed specific. What WILL work is making each and every owner responsible for their dog, no matter what the breed (which is part of the new DLAG proposals). What WILL work is reopening the Index of Exempted Dogs and allowing people the chance to have their "pit bull type" dogs registered without fear of prosecution or euthanasia of completely innocent dogs, until that new non-breed specific legislation is introduced.

Are you honestly saying breed specific legislation HAS worked? Because I must be on a different planet to you if you honestly think BSL is going to make things better.

Can I ask what breed/s you own? It's amazing how many people have acted along the lines of "Well it's not my dog being killed, so who cares?". It's time for ALL dog lovers to come together and speak out against this holocaust. One day it'll be the breed you love, and then who will you cry to? Do you think you'd feel differently if your dog was on the list? Look at Ireland's proposals for bans, dogs that are already restricted. Look at Italy's breed specific legislation. Look at Germany's 20:40 legislation. Then tell me you aren't worried one bit about your dog being next. I'm personally bricking it, I have a Bullmastiff - a 40kg obedience Level 3 trained, well socialised and friendly, Bullmastiff. Is that another breed you'd rather see banned? What about the dogs in the hands of responsible owners thatjust happen to be the same breed? It's alright for them to be punished for the greater good is it?

I own a show dog Staffordshire Bull Terrier that gained his stud book number last year and is eligible for Crufts for life. Extremely wacky character and excellent temperament. Following BSL in other countries I fear for my breed now, the majority of staffords are well bred and well socialised, some ruin our breed by breeding to fight. In the wrong hands any dog can be dangerous, any dog has the potential to be vicious in many different circumstances, however the majority of dog owners are responsible with their dog. Why should every other owner of a breed be judged by the actions of a comparitively small amount. Every dog is different in temperament in some way, thats what gives them their personality, although breed characteristics will be the same. Each individual deed should be judged not the breed.

I'll have to remain thankful that there are people out there willing to get off their backsides for all dogs, not just the ones they ignorantly think aren't dangerous in the wrong hands.

Could not agree more!

I would be against those particular breeds being banned (and I'm not calling for a breed ban in any case) because they are unusual and isolated whereas it seems that we keep hearing the same breeds being involved in deaths of children.
Have you any links to the stories you mention about the above dogs as I have searched and cannot find anything.(the dachshunds and the cocker). I found plenty about children being killed by pitbulls and rottweilers though.

Scaremongering and mass press hysteria aimed at certain breeds more than others due to criminals fighting dogs. The law that bans the fighting of dogs covers all dogs not just those that were years ago bred for that when the sport was legal. I know the history of my breed but I also know why the temperament is suited to families. The majority of staffords are at present at home in responsible family. I will fight for all dogs to live their lives in there home where they should be with no threat from BSL. It will not work. The proposals are there to give every dog its chance as attacks can happen in any breed for many different reasons. If a dog is tormented enough it will snap.

QUOTE(KathyM @ Jan 13 2007, 04:35 PM)
In the States, 2 daschunds dragged a baby out of a playpen and killed it. A cocker spaniel ripped it's elderly owner's throat out. My son was mauled, and permanently facially scarred, by a greyhound. My Bullmastiff was attacked 2 months ago in the park and wounded by a collie cross with irresponsible owners. I've been badly bitten by a Jack Russel. My old foster Staffie was badly wounded in an attack by a mongrel in which he was too frightened to fight back and urinated on the pavement as it tore into his face (this case went to court and we were awarded damages). I bet if I called for any of these breeds to be banned (which I wouldn't as I'm sensible), you'd get off your backside and fight that.

I sincerly think you would fight for whatever your breed is. Fight now before it is too late. It will eventually hit them all in some way. I really truly hope you can see how bad this could be for all dog owners.
If you truly believe that BSL is OK that is fine by you, however I and many others will never agree with you.

EDIT I wonder how you do propose a dog is identified if missing or stolen without a microchip. I personally think tattooing a dog is worse. Do you rely on a collar tag, I would not. If my dog is lost for whatever reason I would like a chance at getting him back.

 

[OohFeeshy]

I would be against those particular breeds being banned (and I'm not calling for a breed ban in any case) because they are unusual and isolated whereas it seems that we keep hearing the same breeds being involved in deaths of children.

Which is exactly the state of mind that those who beleive what the press tells them. The reason they seem 'unusual and isolated' is because of the way the media handles them- it isn't it a 'good' story (if stories like these ever get written about, it's often in a humerous tone- just because it's not a huge , strong 'devil dog', they aren't interested). It's the same as bird flu- all cases of possible human victims were extremely 'unusual and isolated', but again, press coverage made it out to be a deadly, global, apocolyptic disease that was going to kill us all.

 

[fenwoman]

As much as I like bull breeds, rotties, dobes, GSD etc. If it comes down to a BSL being enforced upon them so that the majority of dog owners can enjoy their dogs as usual, then I'm all for it.
I keep hearing
"oh that won't work, Oh that won't work" when nobody ever seems to say "here is a solution to the problem"

I find that comment absolutely shocking considering it comes from someone who claims to work in rescue. If your Giant Schnauzer was being banned, you'd no doubt have a very different view.

Well, there's lots of bull breed, rottie and the like owners who love their dogs as much as you love yours - and to say that doesn't count because of their breed is just appalling. Well, as long as you're ok, screw the rest of the people who love their pets too.

Personally, having been far too close to the biting end of a schnauzer before, my view is rather different to yours - but I know all dogs are made by their owners. And I would never wish a ban on anyone's dog - whatever their breed.

As for foreign objects being injected into dogs, let's hope your dog never goes missing or is stolen...incidentally, most good rescues will insist on microchipping before rehoming.

The problem I have is with hysterical people saying that BSL would mean dogs being slaughtered or being banned. I have never once said that I would want this to happen. If you read my posts I clearly said that a possible solution might be to licence young, possibly irresponsible owners wanting to get possibly dangerous large breeds and to prove that they were knowledgeable, capable and prepared to put in the training and socialisation to ensure that the dog is safe. There is zero chance of my dogs being stolen or going missing. 30 years keeping dogs means my land is dog proof. The dogs stay where I want them to stay because it is fenced that way.I have 8 dogs and nobody would be able to get in to steal them without them all kicking up one helluva racket and me coming out to see why they were barking. I am so concious of dog thefts that if I take the tiny yorkie out in the car with me, she is never left alone in the car in case someone breaks in to steal her.
But this is all beside the point. My last collie, was dangerous, I knew he would bite without warning, and not a single nip either. He was potentially dangerous. When we were out, he wore a muzzle in public to ensure his and other's safety. He was never put in a position where he was able to bite or maul because I loved him. Sadly not all people are responsible.He was only this way with men because of his terrible abuse as a puppy when he was owned by an alcoholic drug taker. Training and socialisation helped a lot but I still didn't take any chances.
I adore dogs, all breeds, but I'm afraid that the life of a child is of a higher priority than any dog however well loved. When I eventually have grandchildren, they will be brought up with animals but I would never leave them unattended with any of my dogs no matter how much I trust them.
A trainer once told me that even his well trained dogs could be 100% guaranteed to do what he least expected them to do at some point in their lives.

 

[LisaLQ]

I dont see how licensing young people but only those wanting to own breeds you think are dangerous would help at all. You are more likely to be bitten by a labrador or crossbreed than a bull breed/rottie/pitbull. Would you be for mandatory licensing with those breeds? And do you understand what the impact would be in the rescue world - how many dogs would miss out on homes because of that?

If we're going to bring back dog licenses, bring them back for everyone - of all ages - with all breeds - you, me, the man over the street, the young, the old - everyone. Doesn't make any difference whether it's a young man owning a pitbull or an old lady owning a crossbreed - if he/she treats it badly that dog could end up dangerous. Could be a poodle. And there's just as many older folks who abuse their dogs as young ones.

Hysterical? The only thing I find hysterical is the fact that people buy the nonsense in the newspapers. Oh god, quick, ban all staffies because they look like pitbulls, and therefore bite - and it's young men owning them who make them do so! What a load of twaddle. Seems some people are more willing to play ostrich than admit it could be any breed.

Do you realise that there's possibly one or two of your 8 dogs who would pass the test for being a pitbull type? My Sky would - and she's a bloomin' lurcher! And heaven help you if those dogs actually are aggressive to anyone, I'm surprised you're not as interested in the DDA when your dogs have proven to be aggressive (through no fault of theirs or yours I hasten to add before it's taken the wrong way) in the past. I'd be campaigning left right and centre to get it smoothed out if I had a dog with an aggressive past.

And where I ever mentionned leaving my kids with dogs, I dont know. I have 5 children, not one of them is left alone with Sky - not even for a second. I wont let them take her out, I wont let them feed her, I wont let them play with her without supervision.

I take it you dont supervise your dogs when they're roaming? I would strongly advise you did in future, as I've heard of dogs being taken from busy farms, even rescue centres, from right under their owners noses. You only have to read DogsLost or Lurcher Search to see the lengths some of these thieves will go to.

Incidentally, my garden has a strong very high fence, and the gate is always locked - but I'd never for one minute leave Sky alone out there. You dont just have to worry about folks taking them out of the garden, you have to worry about the risks of folks/kids coming in (in our case - cats) - especially if you have already nervous dogs

 

[KathyM]

The problem I have is with hysterical people saying that BSL would mean dogs being slaughtered or being banned. I have never once said that I would want this to happen.

Then help oppose the amnesties. Dogs ARE being slaughtered.

If you read my posts I clearly said that apossible solution might be to licence young, possibly irresponsible owners wanting to get possibly dangerous large breeds and to prove that they were knowledgeable, capable and prepared to put in the training and socialisation to ensure that the dog is safe.

All dogs are "possibly dangerous". Did you read the links?

But this is all beside the point. My last collie, was dangerous, I knew he would bite without warning, and not a single nip either. He was potentially dangerous.

Shall we put the same restrictions you suggested on collies then? The point that your collie was dangerous (in your own words) proves my point. For example, my dog has never bitten and isn't dangerous. You've said there should be restrictions on dogs like her, but not your vicious biter?

When we were out, he wore a muzzle in public to ensure his and other's safety. He was never put in a position where he was able to bite or maul because I loved him. Sadly not all people are responsible.

This is why the owner should be held responsible, not the whole breed.

I adore dogs, all breeds, but I'm afraid that the life of a child is of a higher priority than any dog however well loved. When I eventually have grandchildren, they will be brought up with animals but I would never leave them unattended with any of my dogs no matter how much I trust them.

No child should be left alone with any breed of dog. Common sense really. Again, it's down on the owner, or it should be, not the dog or the breed.

I'd like to ask you for the third time to answer my previous questions, which I'm beginning to think you're ignoring. Have you not got an answer to those?

 

[fenwoman]

I dont see how licensing young people but only those wanting to own breeds you think are dangerous would help at all. You are more likely to be bitten by a labrador or crossbreed than a bull breed/rottie/pitbull. Would you be for mandatory licensing with those breeds? And do you understand what the impact would be in the rescue world - how many dogs would miss out on homes because of that?

The staffy crosses, rottie crosses and akita crosses etc already miss out on homes. A good third of my friends 150 rescue kennels are taken up by unrehomeable dogs which nobody wants.

Hysterical? The only thing I find hysterical is the fact that people buy the nonsense in the newspapers. Oh god, quick, ban all staffies because they look like pitbulls, and therefore bite - and it's young men owning them who make them do so! What a load of twaddle. Seems some people are more willing to play ostrich than admit it could be any breed.

Once again. Who said anything about banning a breed? I certainly didn't.

Do you realise that there's possibly one or two of your 8 dogs who would pass the test for being a pitbull type? My Sky would - and she's a bloomin' lurcher!

no there isn't. Which of my dogs,the lurcher, (who looks like a greyhound) pure border collie, cavalier, tibetan spaniel, 2 lhasa crosses, shih-tzu, or tiny yorkie, could be mistaken for a pitbull cross? Why would your lurcher be mistaken for a pitbull cross?

And heaven help you if those dogs actually are aggressive to anyone, I'm surprised you're not as interested in the DDA when your dogs have proven to be aggressive (through no fault of theirs or yours I hasten to add before it's taken the wrong way)

my dogs have not proven to be aggressive. It was one dog, singular.

And where I ever mentionned leaving my kids with dogs, I dont know. I have 5 children, not one of them is left alone with Sky - not even for a second. I wont let them take her out, I wont let them feed her, I wont let them play with her without supervision.

I didn't say you left your children. I don't know you personally so have no idea about you or your dogs. Did you read that I said you personally? If so accept my apologies and show me where I actually said that you left your children and dogs together.

I take it you dont supervise your dogs when they're roaming? I would strongly advise you did in future, as I've heard of dogs being taken from busy farms, even rescue centres, from right under their owners noses. You only have to read DogsLost or Lurcher Search to see the lengths some of these thieves will go to.

my dogs do not roam.They have free access to a large fenced area and I am almost always home. Yes I know of dogs taken from busy farms. A chap locally had a dog stolen. The point is that it is nearly always where there is one dog, chained or in a pen easily accessable. If anyone walks on the road in front of my cottage, all 8 of the dogs kick up big time and I come out to see why they are barking. Any potential thief would have to try to scale the 6 foot thick hawthorn hedge, then the fence inside the hedge, and in full view of my cottage, while attracting the attention of my neighbours next door and across the way with their barking. Since the dogs are normally quite, the neighbours would come looking to see what was happening as they have in the past.

Incidentally, my garden has a strong very high fence, and the gate is always locked - but I'd never for one minute leave Sky alone out there. You dont just have to worry about folks taking them out of the garden, you have to worry about the risks of folks/kids coming in (in our case - cats) - especially if you have already nervous dogs

kids could not get in to my land.a grown man would have great difficulty getting in. The land is fenced and hedged so that a dog who can jump 6 feet, cannot get out. There are easier pickings about. I cannot see that anyone would drive all the way out here to the fens, and in full view of my cottage, next door, and 2 neighbours across the lane, struggle to get over the hedge with 2 large and 6 small dogs going crazy and looking as though they would bite, in full daylight.
After dark equally impossible as there are PIR sensor lights and it is pitch black here with no street lights etc.
The sort of place I live in, just outside a small village, is the sort of place where people look out of their windows if they see someone or a car they don't recognise. Last week my neighbour and I discussed for 5 minutes, who the woman was who walked past the cottages with a little dog as we hadn't seen her before. Typical remote village with nosy inhabitants.
Thieves tend to prefer easy pickings and a quick getaway. Like stopping outside a garden on a busy housing estate in town or a remote farm with nobody about and a dog chained or penned.

 

[TigerIssey]

Do you realise that there's possibly one or two of your 8 dogs who would pass the test for being a pitbull type? My Sky would - and she's a bloomin' lurcher!

no there isn't. Which of my dogs,the lurcher, (who looks like a greyhound) pure border collie, cavalier, tibetan spaniel, 2 lhasa crosses, shih-tzu, or tiny yorkie, could be mistaken for a pitbull cross? Why would your lurcher be mistaken for a pitbull cross?

I have inserted a quote from a newspaper in Bolton that explains why your lurcher is in danger. Please read the reasons carefully.

Article link
http/www.boltoneveningnews.co.uk/mostpop...g_dangerous.php

This is the specificpart of article.

MELANIE Rushmore is calling for people to remain calm until the full facts of the devastating death of five-year-old Ellie Lawrenson are known.

Calls have been flooding in to the Bolton-based Fireside Bull Breed Rescue, run by Melanie.

Most are owners of dogs they fear could be pit bull terrier-type dogs.

If so they are illegally owned, said Melanie, but she is calling for people not to panic as most of the dogs will be perfectly safe and not a danger to the public.

"Until we know exactly what happened with this little girl it is impossible to know why the dog attacked her," she said.

Melanie, who is also involved in the Endangered Dogs Defence and Rescue is concerned that all pit bull type dogs are set to be tarred with the same brush.

Advertisement continued...
"People don't always know if their dog is one of the banned breeds, but unfortunately if it looks like this might be, and even if they do know the parentage of the dog and feel sure it isn't, the law says it can be removed from them.

"The only way to ensure you can legally keep your dog is to plead guilty to owning it, go to court and then get your dog registered. Most dog owners do not want to get a criminal record in order to get their dog registered," she said.

In 1991 it was made illegal to own a pit bull terrier type breed unless it was registered. If the dog was not registered in 1991 then it became an illegal dog, so any pit bull terrier type breed dogs less than 15-years-old will be illegal, said Melanie.

Because pit bull terriers and pit bull terrier types were outlawed 16 years ago they should, by 2007 no longer be around in this country.

Yet pit bull terrier type dogs are prevalent in Bolton and some are still bred for fighting.

Melanie blames the law on the prevalence of the dogs. "By banning them it made them more attractive to the wrong sort of people.

"It also meant the gene pool became smaller which resulted in a problem with temperament," she said.

The dogs are sometimes cross-bred with other less aggressive breeds simply to improve their fighting skills.

Some are bred with lurchers to give them longer legs and more speed and others with the short-eared Sharpei to give it smaller ears, helping prevent ear injuries when fighting.

Read the guidelines you will then realise why your Lurcher is in danger.

http/www.petplanet.co.uk/petplanet/domin...p?article_id=38

This link shows why it is important for the UK to oppose BSL, we do not want to be forced into it by Brussels, I don't want to live at home with any dog waiting for a tap on the door.
We must oppose any type of BSL that includes your idea for certain owners being able to own certain breeds. The breeds are not the problem, it is the people using them to fight that are. As soon as you ban a breed because it has a fighting history, it becomes highly desirable to criminals who continue to breed to fight.
Don't turn this into a vendetta against you, it is not, however these are our reasons for completely opposing BSL, I sit here knowing I have all the necessary precautions in place, I live in the sticks too, however I also know that if someone wanted my dog, they would go all out to get it. I have known dogs be watched and observed for a long time before one is stolen, this is to Steel a Dog to Order, which has become popular lately.

The staffy crosses, rottie crosses and akita crosses etc already miss out on homes. A good third of my friends 150 rescue kennels are taken up by unrehomeable dogs which nobody wants.

So are you saying that you want restrictions on these breeds to cut down on rescues?? This would cause thousands more to come through the rescue system. Amounts of dogs of these breeds going into rescue have risen due to knee jerk reactions like your statement combined with people that don't have a clue what there dog is. Under BSL this would have dire consequences for these breeds and rescue.

QUOTE
Hysterical? The only thing I find hysterical is the fact that people buy the nonsense in the newspapers. Oh god, quick, ban all staffies because they look like pitbulls, and therefore bite - and it's young men owning them who make them do so! What a load of twaddle. Seems some people are more willing to play ostrich than admit it could be any breed.


Once again. Who said anything about banning a breed? I certainly didn't.

You may not have said ban but you did say restrictions, that is still BSL. As Kathy said, any breed can bite. You still gave the same knee jerk reaction that the newspapers and other media do.

QUOTE
And heaven help you if those dogs actually are aggressive to anyone, I'm surprised you're not as interested in the DDA when your dogs have proven to be aggressive (through no fault of theirs or yours I hasten to add before it's taken the wrong way)


my dogs have not proven to be aggressive. It was one dog, singular

Does not matter if you have one agressive dog or more. Fact is if you have a proven aggressive dog you may want to look in more detail about what we are trying to show you. If you were tried under DDA for that dogs aggression, your baby could be put to sleep.

On security of your garden, you not only have to secure a garden you have to maintain that garden. Be very careful about saying it won't happen to me, that is one sure way to head into any trouble blind.

If you read what could happen in Europe and you still sit there in the fens thinking it won't affect you at all in any way, you are mistaken. Eventually, unless we fight, every dog owner will be affected in some way.

EDIT
I have quoted more of the article I mentioned earlier.

The type that has been bred for fighting should not be confused with the smaller and more sociable Staffordshire bull terrier, although, inevitably, people do get confused. The difficulty comes in recognising a pit bull terrier type dog, said Kathy.

Hundreds of cross-bred dogs and their owners have suffered, over the years, because of the ambiguity of the Act.

Cross-breeding has resulted in identifying difficulties that can even cause problems for dog breed experts. A points system is now used to determine whether a dog is a pit bull, with a score of 100 - determined by jaw size etc - meaning a breed is a pit bull.

Pit bull terriers have been bred for a purpose and, as such, have tendencies that can, if not controlled, cause huge - sadly, occasionally fatal - injuries.

"The big problem with a pit bull terrier is that when it gets hold of anything it won't let go. It is bred to do that - it is in the breeding.

"Even if the dog has been bred as a pet it is still in them and that is something you can't do anything about. It is not the dog's fault.

"But there are rogue breeders out there and pit bull terriers are still available," she said.

She said any dog had the potential to be dangerous and dog training classes were extremely beneficial to all family dogs. "They enjoy the classes because they are getting praise for being good. They also socialise the dogs which is important.

"I think the main thing to look at is a particular dog's temperament rather than that of a breed. You can get a dog which is from a fairly docile breed that can have a dangerous temperament."

That is where neutering can help as it does tend to help dogs become more sociable around people.

Kathy stressed the benefits of having dogs neutered and said the RSPCA could help people with the costs if they were on low incomes.

Sadly, said Kathy, pit bull terriers are regarded, by some people, as "macho" dogs to own.

To help detect dangerous dogs in Bolton, dog attacks on other animals are recorded by the police as well as the obligatory recording of attacks on people.

Bolton Police has a dog bite register that records all dog attacks.

"The police didn't used to record dog attacks on animals - only on people. But I said it was important to record both. The police in Bolton agreed to record dog attacks on animals. The attacked animal's owner can go, with a police officer, to identify the offending dog and it will go on the register.

"We hope this can help prevent the dog attacking people. So it is a way of protecting the public," Kathy added.

Although the Dangerous Dogs Act was brought in to tackle the problem of specific breeds, including pit bull terriers, there are loopholes including the fact that an owner can only be prosecuted for an attack which takes place in a public place - this would not apply in the recent tragedy as the attack took place in a family home.

I hope you see now what the DDA act has already done to the detriment of cross breeds and rescues already.

 

[LisaLQ]

Thanks TI - you covered what I was going to say perfectly lol.

Many lurchers nowadays are part bull breed. My girl looks fully greyhound too. But to lurcher folks it's obvious she has bull in her. And she has no tattoos, so she's definitely a lurcher. Doesn't make a bit of difference if you dog actually has bull breed in them - all it takes is for one official to think so, and your dog's locked up.

A pedigree lab fails the pitbull test. In fact the vast majority of dogs tested for pitbull similarities would fail the test. Because the test is so vague - one of the questions is (so I hear) "has it got four legs"! Prominent forehead/eyes, perky ears, it's weight/build, the shape of it's tail - could be anything.

And especially if your dog has been brought up for being aggressive. That and any similarity, and no doubt your dog would be next in line for pts.

That's why it's important that owners of ALL breeds oppose this, not just those with the breeds in question. Or do you think because your dogs are pedigrees, and you can possibly prove their background, that none of this matters to you? Nice to know all dog owners can rely on other caring dog owners to help the cause - you go back to your cocoa and forget about it lol.


Edited to add - Kathy - please can you post details of what they test dogs for to determine whether they're pitbull or not? I cant find it anywhere to show how vague the criteria is!

 

[KathyM]

http/www.defra.gov.uk/animalh/welfare/do...dogsleaflet.pdf

There you go. God forbid any of us own a dog with a tail on it's hindquarters (cos all non-pit bulls have them on their heads don't you know)! And what about those dogs with their ears on top of their heads? Evil thems!

Fenwoman - I'm going to assume you can't answer my questions, as you've completely ignored my repeated requests. It doesn't really bode well for your supposedly thorough and bombproof view if you can't answer simple questions about it. Do I need to ask them again for the third or fourth time, or shall I give up waiting now?

 

[LisaLQ]

I'm going to go through the pitbull type and tick off what matches with Sky:

General description:

Muscular smooth haired dog. Tick.

Has a square profile (ie as tall from the ground to the top of the shoulder and as long as the point of shoulder to piont of hip). Tick. I think most breeds bar the dashund or similar pint sized breeds would fit this.

Ears:

Located high on skull. Tick.

Tips of ears fold forewards or sideways. Tick.

No wrinkles. Tick.

Neck:

Muscular to the base of the skull. Tick.

Chest:

Deep ribcage. Tick. Dont get much deeper than a lurcher/greyhound.

Back:

Muscular. Tick. Very.

Sloping hips. Tick.

Coat:

Single coat. Tick.

Any colour. Tick. She's blue. Common in pitbulls (and staffies, and greyhounds, and weimeraners, and etc etc etc).

Tail:

Located low down on hindquarters. Erm. Yes. Tick. Where every dog's tail is. On it's arse!

Tick at base tapering to a slender tip. Tick. Most dog's tails do tend to get pointy at the end.

Should hang like pump handle when relaxed. Tick. Same with many dogs.

Do you see now how vague these are? I only copied the ones that match Sky. There are more that probably match much more of the dog population. In fact, I think if you pulled any crossbreed out of a rescue and did the test, they'd pretty much match up! And the majority of dogs in rescues haven't even sniffed a pitbull's bum, let alone been born by one!

Incidentally, this is Sky:

She's dead vicious:

 

[OohFeeshy]

Wow, they *are* silly. 'Strong jaws'- how do you find that out? Poke it 'til it bites you and say how much it hurts?

 

[red-devil0602]

I am writing to ask for your help regarding our campaign to bring an end to breed specific legislation.

The recent death of Ellie Lawrensen in Merseyside after an attack by a Pit Bull type dog was a tragedy that few of us can comprehend. However, the response to that tragedy is in danger of causing the deaths of many innocent animals belonging to responsible dog owners.

Merseyside police are planning an amnesty in which owners of Pit Bull type dogs may hand their dogs in, free from the fear of prosecution. These dogs will then be killed.

We strongly believe that an amnesty will not achieve its aim of making the area safer from so-called "dangerous Dogs". Those who are deliberately breeding and keeping Pit Bull Type dogs for fighting (and these dogs are undoubtedly those with the most potential for dangerous behaviour) are not going to hand in dogs – after all criminals do not generally participate in amnesties, they are operating outside of the law and want to use dogs for fighting. Those who don't know they have pit bull types won't think to hand their dogs in. Those who might hand dogs in are those with a dog which looks like a "type" (and the DEFRA guidelines used to identify "type" are based purely on looks in which a Labrador scores 90%!) Most of these dogs will be Staffordshre bull terriers and crossbreeds handed in by scared but responsible owners.

All this will do is target innocent animals that will be killed unnecessarily.

We are a group of responsible dog owners, rescues and organisations who, with the support of organizations like the kennel club, dogs trust and others, are campaigning to change the laws regarding dangerous dogs.


We want the government to change the current legislation and introduce new legislation that truly protects the public from dogs raised by irresponsible owners who may become a danger to people and other animals. Regardless of their breed or type.

There is no doubt that the current DDA is a flawed piece of legislation, it is not even clear that it has helped to reduce dog attacks as there are no reliable statistics kept. Instead it imposes a blanket ban on breeds and does not target bad owners whose behaviour is very often the reason why dogs are anti-social.

The onus has to be put on owners to ensure their pets are well trained and responsibly cared for. Breed Specific Legislation targets the wrong end of the lead!

For more information about our campaign about why breed specific legislation and blanket amnesties are wrong and unlikely to be successful please visit our website www.deednotbreed.org.uk Here you will also find articles and letters of support from well known trainers, dog magazines and from the dogs trust and kennel club all opposing Breed Specific legislation and amnesties.

We are encouraging everyone to sign the e-petition to Tony Blair which can be found at http/petitions.pm.gov.uk/deedNOTbreed/

We feel that you have a valuable contribution to make to the campaign and your support is much needed.

Ideally we would like a message of support for the Deed not Breed campaign in the form of a statement that we can use on our website.

Finally, we would like to pass on a message to your members asking for their help and support.

Thank you for your time and any help you can give us.

Yours Sincerely,

A Parker

on behalf of

Deed Not Breed