Disputable Disputes…..

[Ludwig Venter]

There are a number of (not many) issues that come up from time to time that we all have our own views and convictions about, but whenever they are mentioned, it inevitably leads to heated discussions…..

One of these concerns is the number of fish per gallon (or size of tank)

Now let’s all put on our rational thinking caps on and find a happy medium whereby we all can find consensus on and recommend it to others to follow our guidelines.

It is firstly essential, that we follow a few ground rules to ensure that the topic does not deviate from the subject matter under discussion to attacking the person who made a statement.

Hence, look at the following, and if you cannot abide by these basics, then just abstain from voting, and/or participating in this discussion….

1) Respect the views of any person making a statement in this topic… it is only a statement, so discuss the content of his/her testimonial without referring to the person who made the statement.
2) Do not allow paradigms to dictate your approach (or opinion) to this subject… i.e. be open minded and consider what you’ve heard from others.
3) It may be likely that suggestions made will be (totally) contrary to your beliefs…. Merely respond to these as a confirmation of your convictions and do not respond to the convictions made by other persons in this respect…. They will be analyzed later.

This has always been the one topic that I abstain from giving advice on, as I firmly believe that it is the fish urine in the water that affects their growth and well-being, so if ample water changes are done…. The dilution makes it equivalent to having a set number of fish in a larger tank…. Please vote and comment…. rationally.

 

[ZoddyZod]

Personally I think there are even more things to consider, like 'personality' of fish to give one example.

I think if you can find fish that happily live together, and you have ample filtration, then the 'inch per gallon' rule can be ignored. However, it's still a fairly good rule of thumb for the beginner (I stuck to it at first) as it's a simple rule to follow without going into lengthy details which could confuse a new hobbyist.

 

[Curiosity101]

Hmm, PFK published an article on this last week. Or at the very least the put it on last weeks newsletter. It's VERY well written and I personally pretty much agree with it 100%.

Let me see if I can find a link...
http/www.practicalfishkeeping.co.uk/content.php?sid=3048&utm_source=PFK_newsletter&utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=July_23_2010&utm_term=How_much_swimming_space_do_your_fish_need?&utm_content=html

Article titled 'How much swimming space do your fish need'.

I don't think it covers stocking density exactly. But my personal view is that it very much depends on the fish in question. Then it depends on whether your filter is likely to be able to cope with the volume of waste
Then if you've upgraded it's a case of whether you can deal with the level of nitrates produced and are willing to do much larger water changes to compensate for the fact you've stocked more densely (following a very similar logic to you ludwig, that if the size of the tank vs size + activity of the fish is fine that it then comes down to how fresh you keep the water with regards to how many fish you have).

Hope that makes sense...

And one last note, I personally have tried to make a concious effort recently to not try to tell people what to do. I've never felt it was my place to tell someone what to do but have sometimes sounded like that's what I'm trying to just because I sometimes use definite words like 'x' WILL happen if A B + C aren't changed.

I still use the definites sometimes but make it clear that all I'm doing is giving the facts.

And when giving my opinions I like to try to give a broad view mentioning both opinions, but then explaining why I choose to advise how I do.
Often it depends on the person asking for advice, I will advise something bombproof to a new keeper, but will happily tell an experienced keep that they should 'give it a go' as often they will spot issues quickly and often have extra tanks.

 

[james_fish]

I think it is a lot of factors, personally.

Firstly, the species. If a fish is agressive towards most over fish, then this will limit the amount you can have. Similarly if it is agressive towards its own type, like Red Tail/Rainbow Sharks. Activity aswell, some fish are very active like Danios and need plenty of space as opposed to the Black Knife fish which I believe is very 'docile'
Obviously, tank size & filtration play a big role. We all know day in day out on the forum someone has an unsuitable fish for their size, heck! I've done it myself, most of us have! As an example, a Bala Shark in a 40 gallon? Or an Oscar in a 50 gallon.
The adult size of the fish again is very significant, I mean its all good having a nice little Gibby in your 30 gallon, but having a Catfish that can reach a potential 22 inch is frightening!
Filtration is different with the species. Cichlids will be in greatish numbers so an overfiltered tank is necessary.
Same with water changes, once a week is fine for most species. But I've heard Discus may need more than this? But I have little knowledge of Discus, so don't quote me on that.
Also, suitability is a factor. As in mixing fish with one another.

Overall, I think tank size would be the main factor. Forgetting the 1cm/1inch per gallon rules or whatever they are.

My thoughts

James.

 

[Ludwig Venter]

I think it is a lot of factors, personally.

Firstly, the species. If a fish is agressive towards most over fish, then this will limit the amount you can have. Similarly if it is agressive towards its own type, like Red Tail/Rainbow Sharks. Activity aswell, some fish are very active like Danios and need plenty of space as opposed to the Black Knife fish which I believe is very 'docile'
Obviously, tank size & filtration play a big role. We all know day in day out on the forum someone has an unsuitable fish for their size, heck! I've done it myself, most of us have! As an example, a Bala Shark in a 40 gallon? Or an Oscar in a 50 gallon.
The adult size of the fish again is very significant, I mean its all good having a nice little Gibby in your 30 gallon, but having a Catfish that can reach a potential 22 inch is frightening!
Filtration is different with the species. Cichlids will be in greatish numbers so an overfiltered tank is necessary.
Same with water changes, once a week is fine for most species. But I've heard Discus may need more than this? But I have little knowledge of Discus, so don't quote me on that.
Also, suitability is a factor. As in mixing fish with one another.

Overall, I think tank size would be the main factor. Forgetting the 1cm/1inch per gallon rules or whatever they are.

My thoughts

James.

All very relevant issues there "Chuck Norris", but IYO.... what is the MOST relevant factor....??...

My objection here is to compile a reference to all our new members, and I'd like to say (at the end of the day) that this is the general opinion of members on TFF... if you know where we're heading?.... (I just hate to see... (as it is) when a new member comes on to introduce him/her-self, and gives us a rundown of what he/she keeps .... and then... the first responder says... "I THINK YOU ARE OVERSTOCKED"..... I would immediately change to another forum.... So, let's compile a set of stocking rules for the TFF forum, which will tell any newby what our policy is about this issue....

 

[Curiosity101]

Hmm ok... my opinions as bullets points (sadly I can't condense to one! lol).

• There is no one rule fits all
• Just because it is your opinion that doesn't make it correct, particularly if you are only speaking from your own experience you should be open to hearing other opinions that are based on a much wider sample of tanks/fish.
• You should give the person you're trying to advise all the facts, don't just tell them your opinion. They don't know you from anyone, if you want to tell them something, justify it/explain yourself.
• Don't just spin out the same line every time. Ask questions, take a minute to think and then advise based on their situation. Never take just one thing into account.
• Be friendly, you can't advise someone you've scared off.

I guess if I had to give one thing...
+ Advise what has had the greatest likelihood of success in the past and if you can only refer to your own experience make sure that you state that.

 

[Ludwig Venter]

Hmm ok... my opinions as bullets points (sadly I can't condense to one! lol).

• There is no one rule fits all
• Just because it is your opinion that doesn't make it correct, particularly if you are only speaking from your own experience you should be open to hearing other opinions that are based on a much wider sample of tanks/fish.
• You should give the person you're trying to advise all the facts, don't just tell them your opinion. They don't know you from anyone, if you want to tell them something, justify it/explain yourself.
• Don't just spin out the same line every time. Ask questions, take a minute to think and then advise based on their situation. Never take just one thing into account.
• Be friendly, you can't advise someone you've scared off.

I guess if I had to give one thing...
+ Advise what has had the greatest likelihood of success in the past and if you can only refer to your own experience make sure that you state that.

Very well summed up there Curiosity.... There are always exceptions to the rule to consider, but let's get the rule first and that can only be achieved by putting all of our (divert) experiences together to find a common ground as basis.... From there on... we can compile a guideline to suit basic conditions.

 

[ajs2294]

Personally I don't feel it is a topic you can condense into a single rule. First you must asses the fish before you purchase and add it to your tank for adult size, compatibility, and requirements temp, WCs, hardness, pH, etc. Then adding fish to your tanks comes down to two factors experience and work. You must be experienced to be able to spot any problems early to avoid big issues before you start and know how to deal with these issues. You must also be willing to put the work in that is required to keep that stocking level happy and healthy. The work could be observing your fish, testing your water, water changes, adding filtration, etc. There are so many variables that I just don't see any one rule working for every person on every tank. But I can see times when 1 inch per gallon can work especially when you use it as a beginner but as with a little common sense about body mass of the fish combined.

 

[Curiosity101]

The majority of arguments I end up in on here aren't 'I'm right, you're wrong' but people who tell me that because they've done 'X' that I am wrong to suggest it's not the best way despite the fact that I try to explain I'm basing it on a much much larger sample of people/tanks.

It comes from doing a science degree, you accept that when working with living things there is always an 'average' which is best. There are extremes where you can say no it wont work. But everything else is graded.

 

[james_fish]

I think it is a lot of factors, personally.

Firstly, the species. If a fish is agressive towards most over fish, then this will limit the amount you can have. Similarly if it is agressive towards its own type, like Red Tail/Rainbow Sharks. Activity aswell, some fish are very active like Danios and need plenty of space as opposed to the Black Knife fish which I believe is very 'docile'
Obviously, tank size & filtration play a big role. We all know day in day out on the forum someone has an unsuitable fish for their size, heck! I've done it myself, most of us have! As an example, a Bala Shark in a 40 gallon? Or an Oscar in a 50 gallon.
The adult size of the fish again is very significant, I mean its all good having a nice little Gibby in your 30 gallon, but having a Catfish that can reach a potential 22 inch is frightening!
Filtration is different with the species. Cichlids will be in greatish numbers so an overfiltered tank is necessary.
Same with water changes, once a week is fine for most species. But I've heard Discus may need more than this? But I have little knowledge of Discus, so don't quote me on that.
Also, suitability is a factor. As in mixing fish with one another.

Overall, I think tank size would be the main factor. Forgetting the 1cm/1inch per gallon rules or whatever they are.

My thoughts

James.

All very relevant issues there "Chuck Norris", but IYO.... what is the MOST relevant factor....??...

My objection here is to compile a reference to all our new members, and I'd like to say (at the end of the day) that this is the general opinion of members on TFF... if you know where we're heading?.... (I just hate to see... (as it is) when a new member comes on to introduce him/her-self, and gives us a rundown of what he/she keeps .... and then... the first responder says... "I THINK YOU ARE OVERSTOCKED"..... I would immediately change to another forum.... So, let's compile a set of stocking rules for the TFF forum, which will tell any newby what our policy is about this issue....

I see where you are coming from. We do jump down the necks of new hobbyists quite often on here.

In that case, I believe the MOST important factor would be Tank Size although, I still find it hard to choose.

James.

 

[Ludwig Venter]

Personally I don't feel it is a topic you can condense into a single rule. First you must asses the fish before you purchase and add it to your tank for adult size, compatibility, and requirements temp, WCs, hardness, pH, etc. Then adding fish to your tanks comes down to two factors experience and work. You must be experienced to be able to spot any problems early to avoid big issues before you start and know how to deal with these issues. You must also be willing to put the work in that is required to keep that stocking level happy and healthy. The work could be observing your fish, testing your water, water changes, adding filtration, etc. There are so many variables that I just don't see any one rule working for every person on every tank. But I can see times when 1 inch per gallon can work especially when you use it as a beginner but as with a little common sense about body mass of the fish combined.

Yes!!... This aligns very well with my personal approach and is very flexible (as it should be).... so many factors have direct a bearing on the ultimate decision, but how do you bring this across as a "General" recommendation - (to a newby)

 

[Twinklecaz]

I'm not gonna get too into this coz I don't feel I've been keeping fish long enough to really have a fair opinion on it but something I will say that kinda agrees with the whole there's no set rule thing.....

I have 3 male platys that the official rules will tell me can live together and are not too big for my tank (it isn't anywhere near fully stocked yet). Yet from what I've seen I would say that if you are going to keep all males together like that then ideally it should be in a much bigger tank. I thoroughly believe that the reason they bicker like they do is coz they get under each other's "fins" so to speak and would be fine with ample space.

 

[ajs2294]

But how do you bring this across as a "General" recommendation - (to a newby)

I think we should just put a Ludwig Venter in every LFS on the planet? On a serious note I really can't think of a way to do so. Is it best to take the approach of little information and allow new hobbyists to learn from their mistakes? Or give them to much information and have the paranoid about their fish?

 

[kribensis12]

I think the species is a big role. For instance, you could only have one male betta in there. But you could have 20 tetras in there, no problem, because they shoal. I have always done frequent water changes, and it never plays a factor in what fish I want to keep.

 

[Ludwig Venter]

and it never plays a factor in what fish I want to keep.

The main question here Kribs... is on how many to keep and not so much on what to keep..... Saying (as you do) that you do many water changes.... would that have an effect of the number of fish you keep (in your opinion)??