Cycling Tank With Rb Piranha

[oh*my*goddess]

Hello all (new member here)!
Here is a little bit of info to get started. I was given four(4) red bellied piranhas without notice 5 days ago. I was told that they are 3 yrs old. They are about 4-5 inches in length and seemed to be in good health. Problem 1: I've NEVER taken care of RBP before.

Here is the setup:
55 gal tank
bubble bar
gravel rocks
2 filters (1-aqua tech 30-60 ez change3#, and 1 aqua tech 5-15 ez change#1)
heater
1 algae eater (3 inches) approx 3 yrs old
temperature is currently 76

Feedings:
Twice a day. Morning feeding/evening feeding using tilapia fillets and tetracichlid jumbo sticks.

Stats of the tank taken this morning using "quick dip" 6 tests in one strip:
nitrate 80 unsafe
nitrite 3.0 stress
hardness 300 very hard
chlorine 0 safe
alkalinity 120 ideal
ph 7.8 alkline

I wasnt able to cycle the tank completely as the fish were basically given to me on a days notice. The original owner was either going to throw them away (yikes!) or give them to me for free. So of course, I took them. I really want to do what I can to make the tank livable for them. The nitrate & nitrite have yet to stabilize. The first two days, the water was extremely cloudy to where you couldnt even see through the tank. On the third day, it was crystal clear. Looking at the tank, everything looks and appears to be fine, but deep down, I know that we are not out of the clear. They dont have a strong appetite. They are skiddish, and hesitate to eat their food. This morning, I noticed a couple of them swimming sideways to thrash their body against the gravel. I know that isnt a good sign and could be clues that they are coming down with some type of disease/infection? I fear for the worst. Can anyone help this clueless girl who was basically given 4 orphaned red bellied piranhas without notice!?

 

[jacko32]

sounds like there thrashing there body against the gravel because the ammonia is burning there skin i would do large water changes of about 70% every day to get the ammonia and nitrite down otherwise there going to die pretty quick i would think.

that tank is very small for fish as large as these i would imagine ammonia is going to build up pretty fast you may even need to change the water twice a day.

probably best to try and rehome them to a bigger tank 100gallons or bigger to be honest

 

[oh*my*goddess]

sounds like there thrashing there body against the gravel because the ammonia is burning there skin i would do large water changes of about 70% every day to get the ammonia and nitrite down otherwise there going to die pretty quick i would think.

that tank is very small for fish as large as these i would imagine ammonia is going to build up pretty fast you may even need to change the water twice a day.

probably best to try and rehome them to a bigger tank 100gallons or bigger to be honest

I had so many concerns about taking them in. The tank size being one of them. Know one else wanted them at the time, but I will keep asking around.

Until then, I will do as you suggested and do water changes. Do you think I need to upgrade the filtration system to help elimated the ammonia and nitrite?

Thanks for your input!

 

[jacko32]

even adding another filter wont do much unless its a mature filter then yeah add that but really your best option is the water changes also would be a good idea to get some liquid test kits for ammonia and nitrite as the strips arent very accurate and you could be looking at a much worse problem than the test strips indicate

 

[oh*my*goddess]

even adding another filter wont do much unless its a mature filter then yeah add that but really your best option is the water changes also would be a good idea to get some liquid test kits for ammonia and nitrite as the strips arent very accurate and you could be looking at a much worse problem than the test strips indicate

I see. Would you suggest adding anything in with the water change to help balance things? Or just do the water change alone, and thats it?

 

[jacko32]

even adding another filter wont do much unless its a mature filter then yeah add that but really your best option is the water changes also would be a good idea to get some liquid test kits for ammonia and nitrite as the strips arent very accurate and you could be looking at a much worse problem than the test strips indicate

I see. Would you suggest adding anything in with the water change to help balance things? Or just do the water change alone, and thats it?

no just the water changes really

 

[OldMan47]

The key to getting your water quality under control is to do huge water changes. Changing the filters around will just delay the day when you will have a cycled tank. Bigger filters do not move more nitrites and no filter will ever remove nitrates. Nitrates are always removed using water changes, even on a fully mature tank.
Your very hard water is not much harder than mine is at 225 ppm. Your "ideal" KH of only 120 ppm is rather low in my estimation if you want a stable pH. That number is only about 7 degrees for those of us more accustomed to the German degrees scale.
Nitrites at 3 ppm are deadly. You need an immediate enormous water change if you actually believe those test strips.

 

[waterdrop]

Completely agree with OM47, huge water changes. Water changes should always be done with good technique: Always gravel-clean-siphon the water out if at all possible (nitrites and nitrates may hang closer to the gravel, so you will remove them faster with gravel cleaning as opposed to simple siphoning or bailing.) Water changes in your situation should be so large as to force the fish into the bare minimum of depth that they can stand.

The return tap water should be conditioned (both the the fish' and bacteria' sake) using a good conditioner (Seachem Prime is usually our favorite choice but use whatever you have.) The conditioner should be dosed at 1.5x to 2x but not more than 2x what the instructions say. This is to handle chlorine/chloramine overdosing by the water authorities that could slow your cycling. The return tap water should also be roughly temperature matched to the tank water using your hand.

Don't wait to do water changes just because you don't have our liquid test kit yet but that is another important priority. You need to pick up a good liquid-reagent based test kit. Most of us like and use the API Freshwater Master Test Kit. Once you have your kit any number of the members can explain the goals of using your kit to successfully complete the fish-in cycling situation. Does this all make sense?

~~waterdrop~~

 

[oh*my*goddess]

Completely agree with OM47, huge water changes. Water changes should always be done with good technique: Always gravel-clean-siphon the water out if at all possible (nitrites and nitrates may hang closer to the gravel, so you will remove them faster with gravel cleaning as opposed to simple siphoning or bailing.) Water changes in your situation should be so large as to force the fish into the bare minimum of depth that they can stand.

The return tap water should be conditioned (both the the fish' and bacteria' sake) using a good conditioner (Seachem Prime is usually our favorite choice but use whatever you have.) The conditioner should be dosed at 1.5x to 2x but not more than 2x what the instructions say. This is to handle chlorine/chloramine overdosing by the water authorities that could slow your cycling. The return tap water should also be roughly temperature matched to the tank water using your hand.

Don't wait to do water changes just because you don't have our liquid test kit yet but that is another important priority. You need to pick up a good liquid-reagent based test kit. Most of us like and use the API Freshwater Master Test Kit. Once you have your kit any number of the members can explain the goals of using your kit to successfully complete the fish-in cycling situation. Does this all make sense?

~~waterdrop~~

Hello ~~waterdrop~~

Yes, all of the information you provided makes complete sense. I am so glad I found this site as everyone has been extremely helpful! I already completed the water change earlier. I took out as much as I could (about 80%). My kids, I mean, my fish already seem to be doing better! I've been watching them closely, so when I saw one then three of them thrashing this morning I knew I had to act fast. Believe it or not, they havent thrashed since the water change. AMAZING! I knew I had to do water changes, but I didnt anticipate having to do it so quickly (and so often). They appear to be doing fine for now. I will continue to watch everything very closely.

 

[waterdrop]

OK, good, its a new day and time to move on to the next priority: The paper strip tests you are using are worse than useless, they are misleading and can cause you to make wrong decisions in some cases. You need to begin the search for a good liquid-reagent based test kit. Most of us like and use the API Freshwater Master Test Kit but there are others that are ok if this can't be found. Once you get it you need to learn how to use it (follow all instructions carefully) and practice on your tap and tank water, posting up the results here for the members to see.

The goal in Fish-In Cycling (which is what you're doing) is to be a bit of a detective and figure out the percentage and frequency of water changes that keep your ammonia and nitrite levels both below 0.25ppm until you can be home again from work or school or whatever to do another water change. Its logical to begin with morning and evening testing. In effect, a very large water change may cause you to see zero ppm readings when you test after waiting the obligatory 20 minutes or so for the water to mix. Then the ammonia and/or nitrite from the fish will slowly rise in the following hours and you want to figure out how long it takes before it tries to rise past 0.25ppm for either of these fish poisons.

It usually takes (very unpredictably) a month or so for the two species of beneficial bacteria to grow in the filter (the ones that process ammonia and the ones that process nitrite(NO2)) and then at some point you'll find you can go two days without changing water but getting no trace readings. That's your good sign and you should then play out the week, hoping for 5-7 days in a row of the filter performing this basic accomplishment. After that you can consider your tank to be nominally cycled and continue to watch and log its readings. If you are not finished with your stocking plan then small 2 or 3 fish additions (with a couple weeks in between for the bacteria to catch up) can be resumed. A new tank continues to mature for 6 months to 1 year and should not be overstocked for the first 2 years in my opinion if you are a beginner (the very rough 1 inch of mature medium sized fish body per US gallon of water volume guideline should be observed.)

~~waterdrop~~

 

[oh*my*goddess]

OK, good, its a new day and time to move on to the next priority: The paper strip tests you are using are worse than useless, they are misleading and can cause you to make wrong decisions in some cases. You need to begin the search for a good liquid-reagent based test kit. Most of us like and use the API Freshwater Master Test Kit but there are others that are ok if this can't be found. Once you get it you need to learn how to use it (follow all instructions carefully) and practice on your tap and tank water, posting up the results here for the members to see.

The goal in Fish-In Cycling (which is what you're doing) is to be a bit of a detective and figure out the percentage and frequency of water changes that keep your ammonia and nitrite levels both below 0.25ppm until you can be home again from work or school or whatever to do another water change. Its logical to begin with morning and evening testing. In effect, a very large water change may cause you to see zero ppm readings when you test after waiting the obligatory 20 minutes or so for the water to mix. Then the ammonia and/or nitrite from the fish will slowly rise in the following hours and you want to figure out how long it takes before it tries to rise past 0.25ppm for either of these fish poisons.

It usually takes (very unpredictably) a month or so for the two species of beneficial bacteria to grow in the filter (the ones that process ammonia and the ones that process nitrite(NO2)) and then at some point you'll find you can go two days without changing water but getting no trace readings. That's your good sign and you should then play out the week, hoping for 5-7 days in a row of the filter performing this basic accomplishment. After that you can consider your tank to be nominally cycled and continue to watch and log its readings. If you are not finished with your stocking plan then small 2 or 3 fish additions (with a couple weeks in between for the bacteria to catch up) can be resumed. A new tank continues to mature for 6 months to 1 year and should not be overstocked for the first 2 years in my opinion if you are a beginner (the very rough 1 inch of mature medium sized fish body per US gallon of water volume guideline should be observed.)

~~waterdrop~~

Hello ~~waterdrop~~

I am on my way out to pick up a "freshwater master test kit."

This morning, I noticed that they have begun thrashing against the gravel again =(. I noticed that they seem to be a little aggitated with one another. Although Ive only had them for 6 days, today is the first day that they have begun to act this way towards one another. Im not sure if it is due to the water chemistry and/or stress??

Other than the freshwater master test kit, do you suggest I pick anything else up for them? Possibly something to help reduce the stress in the tank and thrashing??

Thanks!!

 

[jacko32]

there stressed from the ammonia and nitrite thats why there behaving like that

 

[oh*my*goddess]

there stressed from the ammonia and nitrite thats why there behaving like that

Got it. Thanks!

 

[waterdrop]

Agree, the ammonia and nitrite stress will trump anything else, however its possible they'll still be stressed some even once the tank is cycled because of course they are used to a larger minimum shoal size (6 probably min, in nature they probably group in dozens if not more.) And of course tank size conflicts and is intertwined with shoaling size, so you'll want to be constantly looking for their next home after you've rescued them.

~~waterdrop~~

 

[OldMan47]

You really don't need anything special if you are comfortable watching your fish. If you see any signs of stress, a simple 80%+ water change will almost always put things to right. That is not intended to discourage you from getting proper test equipment but is more an endorsement of the water changes you are doing using the fish's symptomatic responses as the determining factor in your water changes. If you can get good enough at watching your fish for adverse reactions, you can actually get to the point where many of us were a few years ago. We knew that something was wrong by watching our fish but had no idea what the details of their chemical conditions were. Instead we thought that people who recognized the symptoms in their fish and did large water changes were the gurus of our day.