Cycling Section?

[stanleo]

There will always be people who feel more comfortable asking the question again rather than researching it. Their reasons are many...some are older and not comfortable with search queries. Some just aren't very good at it. My daughter, who is very web savvy can't seem to create a good search to save her life. I come along, change her keywords for her, and find the info right away. Some just like human contact, follow up questions and to become part of the community, others might not understand the posts they are finding and need someone to walk them through it. etc.
 
So while getting the same questions may be a tad boring or frustrating it is also quite helpful to those who prefer to get information that way. Forums are communities as well as information sources and sometimes we must remember to cultivate both aspects.

Personally I ask questions on here first before going to other resources because I trust the information I get from the people on here more than I trust others. And it is a pain to look for previous threads. I was looking for one today that I know I saw a couple months ago about adding found rocks by the river to your aquarium and could not for the life of me find it. Granted I am a computer moron but it is helpful to me to ask the questions in a new thread. I may get responses from people who didn't chime in on previous threads about the same topic. Those people must have a life. Trying to remember what that's like!
 
Besides, I have joined 5 forums in the last 3 months and this is BY FAR the BEST!

 

[frapadoodle]

@TallTree, yep a real road across from 78 on the Atlanta highway just about a mile and a half from the house. That three mile drive to and from work is murder.

 

[the_lock_man]

 
Don't know if this is the one Igglesby was referring to, but hey, it'll do.

 

[eaglesaquarium]

I'll chime in here - just because its the 4th of July, and in the US, that's all about celebrating freedom.  So, I'll celebrate by exercising my 'freedom of speech' and chime in!
 
 
I have answered many a 'cycling' question.  Back in that day on this website, 'waterdrop' would field many of the cycling questions.  The interesting thing about this is that there are many different ways to do a cycle.  Fish-in versus fishless.  Even the fishless cycle has many variants.  Do you adjust the pH, or not?  Adjust the temperature or not?  
 
 
Ultimately, each situation and every person is different, and we need to always remember that.  In the minds of many of these folks, their situation is unique - no matter how quick we are to judge it as 'just another cycling thread'.  And every cycle is different.  If folks remember, DaizeUK had some serious difficulty with the 'standard' fishless cycle.  Every so often, these strange situations arise and that's what keeps me coming back to the 'boring' cycling threads.

 

[TwoTankAmin]

Let me chime in for a minute. I was asked to write a basic article for the person who is new to the hobby and cycling their first fresh water tank. I was given a reasonable set of parameters and told to write whatever I thought would fit them. Here is what the goals were
 
1. Keep it simple and in plain English.
2. Make it as fool proof as possible.
    a. Minimize the number of ammonia additions.
    b. Minimize the frequency of testing.
    c. Offer virtually no options. These are for more experienced hobbyists.
3. Customize it for the use of API or similar Test kits. (Expected readings etc. are based on these kits.)
4. Assume readers knew about how to to check pH, KH or have it done, and to use at least ammonia and nitrite test kits according to the directions.
 
Here is what I saw as the most important issue. The API nitrite test kit goes up to 5 ppm. During a fishless cylce one should never exceed 5 ppm Nitrite-n. That -n scale can be translated to the scale used by the API type kit. On the API kit 5 ppm NO2-n reads as 16.5 ppm NO2. This means one flies blind for some time relative to nitrites during a cycle. Having 1st timers do diluted tests is asking for trouble. So this meant the method had to guarantee one could not get over 16.5 ppm on a kit that could not test above 5 ppm. The easiest way to control nitrite levels is in the amount and timing of ammonia additions during the cycle.
 
Moreover, the method had to be somewhat forgiving of the potential for mistakes. If you are dosing ammonia to 5 ppm on the API kit the same -n vs ion reading issue is in play- 5 ppm ammonia-n on the API is just under 6.5 ppm. Not so much wiggle room there.
 
I think I have managed to do this. I am close to satisfied with it but am having problems creating the graph I would like to include. It also references links that do not yet exist. Finally, it is based on how Dr. Hovanec suggests one do a fishless cycle except simplified. If one has already cycled a tank or two successfully, I would suggest using his method instead of the one in the article, but I would still suggest avoiding the upper 5 ppm-n levels he states as the upper limits.
 
It is interesting how one thing leads to another. I have on the back burner to start an article for testing and test kits as it really does go hand in hand with cycling. It is one of the links that doesn't yet exist.
 
With any luck I will post this article sometime over the weekend and there will be a thread for it where folks can make suggestions or ask questions about it.

 

[Chad]

 

[SamB]

TTA - may I suggest that you include a brief introduction to filters? I was perplexed by the words filter media, why cartridges were bad, and the different types of filters available when I first came to the forum

 

[eaglesaquarium]

Things like that are best in a separate thread.  The cycling article should be focused on just cycling.  Ancillary or tangential topics will be linked in, once the other threads are written.

 

[frapadoodle]

Bravo, TTA!
Great article on cycling. A worthy read for those familiar, and a must read for new fishkeepers.

 

[Chad]

Indeed! There will be more articles to come from TTA and others. One on testing, and another on algae removal which is in the works.
 
There is also a direct link in the site's navigation to the cycling and algae articles to make them as easy as can be for newcomers to find.
 
Thanks TTA for the hard work and excellent article you created! It's going to help a lot of people avoid disaster I think.

 

[stanleo]

I loved the article!!! I really did and it taught me a lot.
 
But can I ask, would it be possible to do the same thing for those people who find this amazing forum AFTER they start the tank and do what their LFS told them to do? Which is let the tank run for 24 hours and start putting their fish in?
 
Although I do get that that would be promoting something that this forum is against, a fish in cycle.
 
And I hate saying this because of how fantastic that article is but the fact is that most people jump into this hobby without doing enough research. I, unfortunately am one of those people.

 

[TwoTankAmin]

First thanks for the nice comments.
 
stan- what I would write would most likely raise a lot of hackles. Given the choices, I always say do it fishless. But, if one does it properly, you can get a tank cycled with fish in about 5 weeks doing almost no water changes and have them all alive. They may be harmed a bit this way. But if you do minimal water changes and take another 10 days or so they should not even be harmed.
 
But, it depends upon having the right fish and the right number of fish. And if you mess up, the fish pay.
 
That said there are only two realistic solutions to solving the fish in cycling problem for one already in progress:
 
1. Get the fish out of the tank. Then get the right ones in if you still insist on fish in, otherwise switch to fishless.
     a) This could include parking the fish in an uncycled container and doing endless water changes while the tank is cycled fishlessly. (Not a great choice, but possible.)
 
2. Get as much cycled media as possible into the filter or add a decent bottled bacteria, or both.
 
What is not a realistic option, imo, is endless water changes to keep ammonia under .25 ppm or even .5 ppm in many cases.

 

[stanleo]

I see exactly what you are saying. And now that I know better fishless cycle is definitely the right thing to do. I just see so many people get on this forum for the first time with emergencies because their LFS told them that they can add their fish 24 hours after setting up the tank. Those people think they actually did enough research and I don't think they can be held at fault for this. I never heard of fishless cycling before I found this forum. And then they get mad at people for telling them what they need to do ie taking the fish out and getting the right ones or getting mature media in the tank, or just starting over and doing a fishless cycle.
 
Would it not be helpful to send those people to read an article that specifies this, that way they don't automatically assume that the people who are responding don't know what they are talking about?
 
Please don't think I am criticizing the article in any way. It is great and an essential part of this forum to add. I also am not criticizing this forum. It's the best one I have found and the most helpful. It just frustrates me when I see people get mad at you or eagles or talltree or any of the others when I know that what you are telling them is the right advise. I think they would take that advise better if they read an article as well thought out and researched as this one.
 
And if you think I am being naïve or stupid, feel free to ignore me. I realize that an article that I am proposing would be a monumental undertaking but I feel like it would be helpful.
 
Thanks for listening to me (or rather reading me). I have nowhere near the experience that you have.

 

[TwoTankAmin]

Its just that doing the endless water changes is can actually be more harmful to the fish than the higher ammonia in many cases. Stress can be as harmful as short term exposure to somewhat elevated ammonia or nitrite.
 
I am reminded of one of Dr. Hovanec's srudies where they tested a number of bacterial starter mixes and also a control group. They had a number of control tanks- I think 8 total in two different sets of experiments. All the tanks were cycled with fish and minimal or no water changes (can't remember which). Nitrite got up there as did ammonia. We are talking whole numbers and some with 2 digits. But in 33 days all 8 tanks were fully cycled and 100% of the fish were alive. Dead fish would have compromised the experiment some.
 
Here is the old standard chart of a fish in cycle. it is in -n (aka -nitrogen), so multiply the ammonia numbers by 1.28, the nitrite ones by 3.28 and nitrate by 4.42 to see what they would be on API kits. this is how tanks used to get cycled.
 
 

 
How else can one have any shot to do a fish in with only some water changes in order to keep those numbers smaller. Bear in mind, making them smaller makes the cycle go faster in this case. If you have less ammonia going in, you need to have less bacteria created, so it takes less time. You make them smaller with fewer fish (at the start or by removing them now and doing a big water change) or else by seeding. Nothing else will work and still pretty much guarantee from that point on the fish will not suffer permanent damage? I really do not thing telling newbies to heavily plant a tank is practical either but it would help in some cases.
 
I have seen enough research to believe that water changes are stressful to most fish. Especially to ones not used to them or the tank. Stressed fish have less resistance to ammonia and nitrite. What good is slowing down the cycle to lower ammonia/nitrite levels if at the same time doing so is increasing stress levels making the fish more susceptible to their effects?
 
I have no problem explaining why folks should either get the fish out in some fashion- park them, return them, sell them. I have no problem telling them why they need to find cycled stuff and suggest where to do so. I would also urge a revival and change to make the media donation here be only for newbies stuck in a fish in cycle. The can do water changes one or twice while waiting for it to arrive. More experienced members should be able to find their own anyway. Join a club, buy Safe Start or One and Only. Steal some of your own.

 

[Blondielovesfish]

Thanks TTA for the hard work and excellent article you created! It's going to help a lot of people avoid disaster I think.

 
+1
Great article TTA Good job!