Crazy Ph, Please Help!

[thebsuguy]

so having a major PH problem, and need some guidance. ill give u all the facts, and please suggest some help!

I own a 55g tank.
I purchased 50/50 sand/gravel from petco. both the package and the employee assured me this would not mess with my water Paraments, and contained no calcium.
filled the tank with 100% RO water.
I also purchased a API Test kit to test every thing.

I ran the tank with nothing but the substrate and plants for 1 month while adding Beneficial bacteria, following the label directions.
I slowly started to add fish. (fish i didnt care about) over that 1 month period.

After 1 mouth I got rid of some of the popo fish, and now have 4 2" discus, and keeped the 3 allege eaters, and 2 dwarf Gouramis.
Every week i do AT LEAST 50% water changes of pure RO water.
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So here is my problem....
The only thing in the tank is the substrate that states there is no calcium, and wont effect my water, a few plants, and a few fish.
after letting my RO water age i get PH around 6.5

24 hours after I do a big water change my tank paraments are as followed:

=====
Temp: 85
PH: 6.6
hardness: 10
Alkalinity: 40
Ammonia, nitrite, nitrate: 0
=====

Right before I do another water change Ill check my water, and i get the following:

=====
Temp: 85
PH: 7.8
Hardness: 70
Alckalinity 80
Amonia: .2
nitrite:0
nitrate:0
=====

I do water test every other day, and am able to slowly see these numbers change. My question is WHY ARE THEY CHANGING? there is nothing in the tank but substrate, plants, fish. I asked my local petco, and they assured me its not the substrate, but have no idea why this is happening. This has been going on for 2 months now. Im not using any chemicals other than the BB after water changes as directed, and feeding them mostly New Life Spectrem Discus food.

My issue is that when I do a water change, my PH drops, then raises really fast.
WHY, and HOW do i fix this?

Im affraid they are going to die very soon after I do another water change due to PH change.
Please help!

Thank you!

 

[thebsuguy]

Forgot to mention.

After analyzing all my water pavements test, and graphing it out, the only thing I can see that is causing this problem is due to the substrate containing Calcium.
this is evidence by the water hardness change, alkalinity, and ph change. However, I was assued the substrate was not the problem.

Hoping some one will either agree with me, or give me the answer on why this is happening so i can adjust my tank accordingly.

 

[Mauigirl]

I'm no expert but please detail where you are getting your RO from, and why are you using it?

It sounds more like treated water returning to buffered state.
Unless you bought crushed coral I would doubt any sand / gravel from a LFS would raise PH.

Your conditioned tap water may likely be a better more stable choice and save you a ton of work/ money.

 

[DrRob]

If your RO is good then you're right, you have a source of buffer in your tank or as Mauigirl says it's buffered water not RO you're using, although I'd think it odd for anyone to bother, as it'd probably be cheaper to just make RO.

Out of curiosity, what is BB that you add with every water change?

You could try testing some water, boiling it in a kettle and throwing it over some gravel, will give you a shorter reaction time to test any pH change it may be causing.

Do you have a TDS meter?

 

[thebsuguy]

If your RO is good then you're right, you have a source of buffer in your tank or as Mauigirl says it's buffered water not RO you're using, although I'd think it odd for anyone to bother, as it'd probably be cheaper to just make RO.

Out of curiosity, what is BB that you add with every water change?

You could try testing some water, boiling it in a kettle and throwing it over some gravel, will give you a shorter reaction time to test any pH change it may be causing.

Do you have a TDS meter?

To answer you questions, i am getting my RO water from Walmart. how this i a problem, since after letting it sit, the water test what it should
I agree with you DrRob, There is somthing in my tank that is buffering the PH back up. but theres nothing in the tank. read below

So I did an exsperiment today. took two testing tubes.
Tube A was filled with pure RO water
Tube B had 1 grain of sand/gravel, and then added pure RO water to it.

Did a PH test on both tubes. Tube A was around 6.5
Tube B was around 7.8
does this suggest substrate?


I am using Microbe-Life Special Blend (good for salt/fresh water)

I'm no expert but please detail where you are getting your RO from, and why are you using it?

It sounds more like treated water returning to buffered state.
Unless you bought crushed coral I would doubt any sand / gravel from a LFS would raise PH.

Your conditioned tap water may likely be a better more stable choice and save you a ton of work/ money.

Mauigirl, as answered above, I get my RO water from walmart. Even after lettig it age, PH is still around 6.5

The reason I am using RO water is my tap water is exstreamly hard, and very basic. its so bad that discus would flip over and crock.

 

[Livewire88]

Are you adding a re mineral mix to the RO water?

Because you will need to if you are wanting to add fish to your tank

 

[thebsuguy]

Are you adding a re mineral mix to the RO water?

Because you will need to if you are wanting to add fish to your tank

Not at the moment.
Whats more important, making sure fish gets all their minerals, or stopping the PH from fluctuating?

 

[fluttermoth]

Well, it's a bit of both, tbh. Obviously your substrate must be hardening the water, but if you're using pure RO it will dissolve anything in the substrate as a buffer. If you remineralise the RO water, it might not dissolve. Anyway, fish can't live in pure RO water; they need minerals the same as we do.

 

[thebsuguy]

Well, it's a bit of both, tbh. Obviously your substrate must be hardening the water, but if you're using pure RO it will dissolve anything in the substrate as a buffer. If you remineralise the RO water, it might not dissolve. Anyway, fish can't live in pure RO water; they need minerals the same as we do.

Well my plans were to do a mixture of tap/RO water to get good PH, and just stay with that ratio for awhile.

However, this PH spike has me scared to add any type of tap.

Here is my understanding of whats going on, please correct me if I am wrong.

Just did a 90% water change of Pure RO water at 6.0PH, meaning its acidic.
The gravel must have calcium as stated above, so over time the water will become harder and ph will go to about 7.5 in a few days. ( i keep track, so i know what the numbers been doing)
Over time, the acidic RO water is pulling the minerals out of the substrate, and then are being removed after water change.
As far as adding minerals go, I dont need to quite yet, since the fish are getting their minerals from the substrate.
Over time, after lots of water changes, the substrate will lose its calcium/minerals, and the PH will start to come down.
Then I should start being concern about adding minerals.

Am i full of it? or do i have a understanding of whats going on?

 

[DrRob]

Here is my understanding of whats going on, please correct me if I am wrong.

Just did a 90% water change of Pure RO water at 6.0PH, meaning its acidic.
The gravel must have calcium as stated above, so over time the water will become harder and ph will go to about 7.5 in a few days. ( i keep track, so i know what the numbers been doing)
Over time, the acidic RO water is pulling the minerals out of the substrate, and then are being removed after water change.

Agree with you so far.

As far as adding minerals go, I dont need to quite yet, since the fish are getting their minerals from the substrate.

Now I disagree with you. It's not just calcium they need, which is most likely the bulk of what you're getting. Iron, for instance, is likely to be nil.

Over time, after lots of water changes, the substrate will lose its calcium/minerals, and the PH will start to come down.
Then I should start being concern about adding minerals.

Am i full of it? or do i have a understanding of whats going on?

The amount of mineral it needs to change water chemistry like this is very little. The amount in your substrate will be many kilograms. It'll take years to deplete.

Sadly, if it were my tank, I'd be changing the substrate.

 

[MBOU]

Its quite obviously the substrate and the employee you spoke to didnt know any different.

Personally, I would have that substrate right back out that tank and run the tank with no substrate for a week or two (this wont bother the fish, all my discus tanks were bare, prevented this problem!).

I would get substrate out, do a waterchange (and siphon out last of th substrate/dirt) and add a buffer to the RO and keep testing, see what happens. Most discus are very tolerant! People fuss a little too much sometimes, but in the wild their temperatures and PH does fluctuate depending on time of year and where in the rivers they are and at what depth...

Keep calm and dont panic is the main thing

 

[thebsuguy]

Its quite obviously the substrate and the employee you spoke to didnt know any different.

Personally, I would have that substrate right back out that tank and run the tank with no substrate for a week or two (this wont bother the fish, all my discus tanks were bare, prevented this problem!).

I would get substrate out, do a waterchange (and siphon out last of th substrate/dirt) and add a buffer to the RO and keep testing, see what happens. Most discus are very tolerant! People fuss a little too much sometimes, but in the wild their temperatures and PH does fluctuate depending on time of year and where in the rivers they are and at what depth...

Keep calm and dont panic is the main thing

I completely agree with you. the issue here is that this is the SECOND time Petco has sold me substrate with Calcium in it, when it wasnt suppose to.
Last time I changed my substrate, it scratched my tank, still bitter about it. few questions:

1)So im going to do what you say, However, once i remove the substrate, and run the tank BB, wont this increase the chance of the PH moving up and down? there for i would have to do daily water change inorder to maintain PH due to lack of alkalinty....( think im using correct terminology.)

2) after that, I still want Substrate, I perfer white sand. I was thinking of pool filter sand, not DE. Do they sell super white pool sand, or would what would you suggest?

3) Im going to run some more test on my TAP water to see if it will be suitable for my discus...worse case, if I must use pure RO water, what product do you suggest I use to add minerals back into water?

Thank you

 

[thebsuguy]

So ran into another problem. called the petco manager and she said that its impossitable that there is any calcium in my substrate.

She said thay the ph is changing due to me doing weekly water changes, wich is not allowing BB to stay in the tank, and cuasing the ph change. She suggested i do no more than 25% water change once a mounth!

I assurred her she was wrong, that 25% water change weekly is the norm for discus.

She continue to tell me all her cradentials and that i was to blame for not understanding tank cycling.....


How do i go about this issue?

 

[Erik]

Do you have a TDS meter? Someone has already asked this but I didn't see a response. The reason I ask is you say you are using PURE RO water from Walmart. Is this drinking water? If so, it probably has some minerals (TDS) in it as we shouldn't be drinking pure RO/DI water.

 

[thebsuguy]

Do you have a TDS meter? Someone has already asked this but I didn't see a response. The reason I ask is you say you are using PURE RO water from Walmart. Is this drinking water? If so, it probably has some minerals (TDS) in it as we shouldn't be drinking pure RO/DI water.

I do not, its an RO filter, for refilling water.( I read the all the fine details before using )
I have been to my local petco 3 times now, asking three diffrent employees, with no one having an answer. All they say is " i dont understand why its doing that, I cant help you"

PLEASE HELP, Tell me what info you need to solve this problem and ill get it to you!
again, the water I am putting in it is RO water with a 6.0 PH, even after letting it sit for days, its PH stays the same.
here is a log of my tank:
http/s9.postimage.org/hwgj15bb3/tank.png


HELP MY DISCUS PLEASE!!