Community Tank Thoughts

[Curious_George]

Hi All
 
I'm about to stock my first aquarium.
 
The tank is approx 120 liters, sand and a fertilizer substrate, planted, and a decent sized canister filter.
 
I'm thinking
 
5 platys - 1 male 4 female
5 mixed cory catfish
6 male guppys
4 mixed honey gouramis
a few shrimps and snails
 
Appreciate any thoughts 
 
Thanks

 

[Byron]

First, what are your water parameters?  Meaning the hardness (GH) and pH.
 
Second, I would not have female platy, especially not four with one male.  The male will impregnate all the females in very short order, and you will be having fry by the hundreds.  Platy fry are usually not easy to get rid of (stores don't want them) and while some will be eaten a lot will survive.  A female can produce batches of 20-50 (though 70 can occur) every 4-6 weeks and this has a significant impact on the biology of the tank.
 
I would not recommend sedate fish like gourami in with the more active livebearers.  When I know the parameters, I may have suggestions for fish.
 
Byron.,

 

[Curious_George]

Hi Byron 
 
The water comes out of the tap quite hard, around 8 ph.
 
I've set the tank up to hopefully bring the PH down.
 
Sand substrate, drift wood and i have a small peat ball in there, i might put another in depending where i am in a few days time
I'm aiming for a ph of around 7 or just slightly below, i've read that's what cory catfish prefer?...,.
 
The reason i was thinking of gourami's is i like tall flat body shape - similar to angels
Any recommendations along those lines would be much appreciated
 
Thanks for the tip on the platys

 

[attibones]

The best thing you can do for a tank is stock with your pH and not manipulate it. Manipulating the pH causes fluctuations which are no good for the health of any of your fish. I also recently learned that fish in acidic water (meaning under 7 pH) will usually do well in more alkaline water (meaning over 7). However, fish suited for alkaline water do not always take to acidic water well.

It is also very important to know how hard your water is. Soft water fish usually do not do well at all in hard water and hard water fish are usually uncomfortable in soft water. Guppies and platies do well in harder water with a higher pH, but all the rest of your proposed fish prefer the reverse. You can find your water hardness on your water provider's website, or you can call them and find out, or you can get an estimate by looking at your water faucets. If you have limescale build up then you likely have hard water.

Also, have you started cycling yet? There are several useful guides on this website and one in the second link in my sig.

 

[Byron]

I would agree here.  As for the pH lowering, it does naturally tend to do this simply from the breakdown of organics in the substrate as the tank matures.  However, the initial GH and especially KH (carbonate hardness or Alkalinity) can "buffer" this.  It is important to find the GH and KH of your tap water, check the website of your water authority.  The pH is connected to the GH/KH but high pH does not always go with high GH.
 
On the cycling, this depends upon your plants.  You can "silent cycle" with sufficient and fast-growing plants (floating work very well for this) and a very few initial fish.
 
Byron.

 

[Curious_George]

I've tested the ph of the water straight from the tap which is 8.
information from my water provider ......
Calcium (milligrams per litre) 71.6 
Calcium carbonate (milligrams per litre) 179
Degrees Clark 12.53
Degrees German (ºdH)10.024
Degrees French (ºf)  17.9
I have no idea what this means? 

 
It's classified by the provider as "moderately hard"
There is no information provided on GH/KH?
 
9 days into fish-less cycling, my ammonia has fallen from 4 to 2 ppm and the ph is now at  7.4.
No sign of any nitrites
 
i'm very tempted to do a big water change plant the tank up, introduce a 2-3 fish than carry on with the fish less cycle, i'm finding the waiting hard 
 
I intentionally used bogwood and sand  instead of gravel and rocks which i understand helps bring the ph down, i don't plan to manipulate the ph through chemicals etc if i can set the tank up so the ph naturally lowers from the 8 of the tap water i think this is ok? when the tank established i wouldn't think 15% water changes wouldn't cause too much of a ph fluctuation?
 
Thanks for the advise on trying to bring it to into acidic territory i guess where it is now at 7.4 is quite reasonable,would cory catsfish  be happy at this level re your comments on fish easier adapting to alkali water then the other way round  
My priority is to have some bottom feeder fish then populate the rest of the tank with fish to suit, if the above water parameters aren't suitable for cory's are there any other bottom dwellers that would be more suitable?
 
Thanks

 

[Byron]

The GH number (10 dGH) is at the low end of the moderately hard range.  The calcium carbonate at 179 ppm (mg/l = ppm) equates to 10 dKH, so as one would tend to expect.  The pH out of the tap will therefore likely remain fairly stable (i.e., not lower) in the aquarium.  However, your tap water pH test might not be accurate if you did not out-gas the CO2.  You can do this by vigorously shaking the water in a small jar before testing; only tap water needs this treatment, tank water can be tested for pH straight.
 
Testing pH during cycling can be misleading, as the ammonia and cycling can I believe affect it, so I would not put too much store in this.
 
Sand won't affect the pH (unless it is calcareous in which case the GH and pH will increase or rise).  Wood and similar organic matter (dry leaves, peat, cones) will work to lower GH and pH, but here the initial KH will buffer.  There are several factors that play into this, so sometimes you just have to see what occurs in your particular tank.  I have seven tanks running, and things like this are a bit different in all of them.  And again, things will fluctuate a bit until the tank is cycled and established with fish producing organics.  If you have live plants in the tank now, I would not add ammonia.
 
The more common corys are robust enough to not have a problem here.  Wild caught species would be a very different matter.
 
Byron.

 

[Curious_George]

Thanks for your help.
 
Could you recommend a more suitable fish than the Honey Gourami's ....

 

[Byron]

Thanks for your help.
 
Could you recommend a more suitable fish than the Honey Gourami's ....

 
You're welcome.  With your water, livebearers are obviously good, just watch the male/female ration, stay with all males unless you want dozens of fry regularly.  Shrimp and snails you initially mentioned will be good too.  I would leave out the gourami more because they are sedate, unless your other fish ideas change.  There are tetra that will work fine here, the Pristella comes to mind.  The corys.  Another substrate fish that is to me interesting is the Whiptail Catfish, just be sure it is the smaller species Rineloricaria parva; you could have 1, 2 or 3 of these, and there is the so-called "Red Lizard" variant too, something a bit different.  Very peaceful, will eat algae off plant leaves and wood.  You could find some danio species.  Not all of these obviously, due to tank size (120 litres, approx 30 gallons), but some ideas to look into.
 
Byron.

 

[attibones]

If you are dead-set on the live bearers, I would keep those as your top dwelling species as they are rather nippy and fast, and most top-dwelling "centerpiece" fish are slow.

However, you could find a show piece fish the lower section of the tank. Peacock gudgeons (which are a new fish for me and I'm in love with them) would work well and would not disturb any species. However, depending on how your tank water settles, the guppies and platy may not be a suitable choice. I would go for a school of corys (I prefer the albino ones, but others from your LFS like bronze or any of the smaller species such as panda, habrosus or hastatus or Pygmy will work just fine), a school of some tetras or rasboras (I'm fond of the albino glowlight tetra and espei rasbora) and then a few honey gourami. In a well planted tank (being sure to include floating plants), you'd have a lovely and lively aquarium with color and activity which would all work well together. However, I'm not sure if these fish would thrive in your higher pH.

Do test the pH after letting tap water sit out for 24 hours, or shake it. My water company had been messing with the tap water and it was coming out at about 8.6, but after letting the water sit out for a day the pH dropped to 7.6, which is where it normally tests.

 

[Curious_George]

I really like like the look of the peacock gudgeons, these with some honey gourami's, rasboas and cory's would really look really nice!
 
The Pristella tetra i think would go well with the platy's, guppys and cory's
 
Perhaps if i see where my ph is in a few more weeks time and then go from there if gets close to 7 i can go for the gudgeons and gouramis
if it higher the platies and guppies?
 
I really hope it gets to 7
it's 7.4 when i last tested - a week in the aquarium , i guess this quite close to where it is from the tap. When i tested a ph of 8 from the tap  i didn't shake the sample or let it sit - i will have to do this
 
How would you go about introducing the fish ?
In the more alkali set up i figure the platy's would go in the first as they are fairly hardy..... then tetra's, corys and guppies
 
I'm not sure how to go if i could go for the first set up? -i imagine the fish aren't quite so hardy?
 
Thanks again!

 

[attibones]

If you are doing a silent cycle, you'll want to add the platys and guppies first. You'll just add a few at a time like this. Then add the tetras (depending on the species) and then the corys (depending on species). If you get a more sensitive cory, you'll add that one last. If you get a more sensitive tetra, like the neon tetra, you'll add that one last. You do this so that your tank has time to establish and so that you can get the hang of monitoring and taking care of the aquarium. Hardier species can handle errors a little better.
 
If you intend to just do the regular fishless cycle, which may not be necessary with your amount of plants (how many have you got, by the way?), then you can add your whole stock at once. You should add them at once, rather. The bacteria will only thrive for as much food as you offer them. If you cycle the tank up to 4ppm and only add 1ppm of ammonia after that, you're eventually only going to have enough bacteria to handle 1ppm. Of course, a well established bacteria colony will be able to reproduce faster with further additions of fish, but you still run the risk of a mini-cycle. 
 
If you decided to go with a gudgeon tank, I would add the rasboras and corys first. I'm not sure if peacock gudgeons and honey gourami will work well together, but either of these would be best to add last. The gourami may be a bit territorial if added first. I would add the gudgeons last just because they may be harder to find for one, and they may be more prone to tank fluctuations. I added mine first with my BN plecos because I already had them in a different tank, but I think I would have added my tetras first and then my gudgeons and then my rainbows (which I still haven't gotten yet). 
 
Once we get a read of your pH after it has been gassed out, we'll see what will be more suitable. A cycle does alter the pH so your tank tap may not be reliable right now.

 

[Curious_George]

I don't have any plants in at the moment, i set the tank up just over a week ago.
Introduced ammonia to give 4ppm, switched on the filter, air-stone, and set the temp at 78.
The ammonia has fallen to 2ppm but seems to have stalled now, there aren't any signs of nitrites or nitrates.
I'm tempted to do a big water change, put in the plants and go the silent cycling route? as I don't really know where i'm at with the fishless cycle. 
The plants i had in mind, jungle val, amazon swords at the back, dwarf sagittaria in the foreground, rotala in the middle, and might trying attaching something to the driftwood,  i probably need to do some more research into best suited plants.....?
 
My sand substrate is a fairly light colour, would this be a problem if i went with the  peacock gudgeons/honey gourami's.
I've read it could lead to colour loss?
 
Thanks
 
ps would my tank be to small for rainbows?

 

[Byron]

Rainbows...it depends upon the species.  They are shoaling fish, thus requiring a group.
 
Substrate colour does affect fish, but as long as it is not white you should be OK.  You can always darked it by dry leaves, chunks of wood, and floating plants to shade the light.  Substrates reflect tank light so keeping the lighting lower helps.
 
Jungle Val gets very large, 4-5 feet (Kasselmann says up to 7 feet).  You might want to consider one of the smaller species; Vallisneria will do well in your water so a good choice.  Amazon swords, the common one gets large so in a 120 litre tank maybe one off-centre.  The chain swords and pygmy chain swords do well.  Dwarf Sagittaria is very similar to pygmy chain sword but I find the swords grow faster.  Don't forget some floating plants; Water Sprite, Water Lettuce, some stem plants grow nicely floating, Pennywort is one.
 
Once you get these plants in, and start fertilizing them, you can add the first fish.  Don't add more ammonia though, this can kill the plants.
 
Byron.

 

[Curious_George]

Thanks for your plant recommendation Byron, i think i will go exactly what you've recommended
 
Hope i can find them LFS
 
Thanks again!
 
George