Clearly I've Gone So Wrong Somewhere...

[BlueDragon]

Yep, your right. The tap water gives the same reading for ammonia. 0.5

So does that mean it's nothing to worry about? And of so, that's the reading I was getting before, if not zero, so does that mean this isn't a cycle problem? Or when I do have a cycled tank the bacteria will sort out that slight rise for me?

Will my Fish be OK till then?

 

[Prime Ordeal]

Yes, as long as you're using the dechlorinator which also detoxifies the ammonia then there's no problem. The filter, assuming it is cycled, will quickly take care of 0.5ppm ammonia. So take a reading in, say, six hours and if it's less than (or at least no more than) 0.5ppm then you should be OK. Then tomorrow the ammonia should read zero.

 

[big_sw2000]

I would still say a cycle problem.

As said above when treated with dechlorinator, the chloramine will release a little amonia, although it wont be toxic to the fish.

So carry on with big water changes. Most of the tank unfornently, and treat the water every day.

Your readings will be 0 when cycled

Steve

 

[Prime Ordeal]

I would still say a cycle problem.

As said above when treated with dechlorinator, the chloramine will release a little amonia, although it wont be toxic to the fish.

So carry on with big water changes. Most of the tank unfornently, and treat the water every day.

Your readings will be 0 when cycled

Steve

Water changes shouldn't be done at the moment until it's been established whether the filter is cycled or not. To do that a reading needs to be taken after about six hours, as I said. If ammonia is on the rise then the filter is not cycled and water changes are in order, but if it's less then the filter is cycled (or near to) and all's well. I'm assuming from what you've said that the nitrite is always zero.

If you do water changes you're not going to know.

 

[4seasons]

Ammonia: 0.5

PH: 6.4
KH: 50
GH: 125
Nitrate: 0
Nitrite: 0

Now that you know you have ammonia in the tap water you know what is making your fish sick. As others have said use a dechlorinator that detoxifies ammonia (like Seachem's Prime.) The detoxification is only temporary though (24 hours) and the whole time you fish are producing even more ammonia. You are going to be stuck doing daily huge water changes (80-90%) until you filter is cycled. As others have said, get some mature filter media to speed things along. Make sure you keep that filter media submerged in old tank water both on the trip home and while doing large water changes as drying or being exposed to chlorine from tap water will kill the very bacteria you need living in your filter.

A quick word about your PH. First don't waste your time trying to change it even though it is a bit on the low side. Your low PH is helping the ammonia be less toxic but when you reach the nitrite spike part of your cycle it will make the nitrite more toxic. Having a low PH will also slow your cycling progress down, so you have a long road ahead of you.

 

[Prime Ordeal]

Bluedragon can you just clarify how long you've had the tank and what you've been doing to cycle it please?

 

[big_sw2000]

Bluedragon can you just clarify how long you've had the tank and what you've been doing to cycle it please?

And i was wondering what filter you had

Steve

 

[BlueDragon]

OK, so I'm positive my filter isn't cycled. Even if, by some mirical, it was to begin with I don't think it is now. The medcines I've been using, (not at once) have killed what little bacteria I might have had so now I have nothing. I know that 'cause it warned it would kill it on the bottles.

The filter I have is a Superfish fifty to two hundred litre filter and right now I have it turned up full wack again to try and help Sunny catch his breath. I don't think that will work, but it's all I can think of to do for him other than everything else I'm doing.

This morning Sunny is still sitting on the gravel. He is swimming around, but it's like he gets out of breath and has to have a rest. His breathing gets quicker and he tires. But then when he's got his breath back he gets up and swims around again. Other than that he's fine. He'll eat and he's pooping. Not so much as a speck on him anywhere.
Flame is still in the net and to be honest she's not doing much at all. I don't want to risk putting her back in the main tank to see how she'll react in there 'cause I'm still not sure what the 'spot' is on her side. It's fading now and so maybe it was just a damaged scale, but untill I'm sure I don't want to risk anything. Her tail, I'm now not sure about that really. It's not looking anywhere near fin rot, but I'm not convinced that it's not that either. I'm not sure if I'm making it up or if the rip has got bigger. But it's clean and there's no sign of any rot.

The rest of my Fish are fine. Panda seems to have had a big growth spurt and even tiny Gem is bigger. Lemon won't stop flirting and Geisha doesn't care. Everyone else seems happy and active. No marks, spots or nips, no-one is breathing faster than normal and everyone is swimming about doing their thing.

The tank I've had for ten years, but I've only just now used it as a Fish tank. I've explained that part of the story in my introduction.

So I know that it's probably the ammonia, even that tiny bit, that's making Sunny and Flame ill, right? But does that mean my treater isn't working? I can't think why it wouldn't be, but I only put new in yesterday after I emptied the tank and re-filled it. It's not even been 24 hours since I did it. Could I risk putting a bit more in than it says to do on the bottle? Just a bit? Would that do anything or not?

I am going up to the petshop in a bit and I'm also going to get Flame her own tank and filter for it. Just one of those ones kids get for a Goldfish (square, not round), but it'll have it's own filter and it means if she does have fin rot or some other problem then I can treat her while still cycling the main tank. The only problem is that if I need to treat her for something then I can't cycle 'her' filter so there'll still be that problem of ammonia. What can I do about that? Anything?

That's really the best plan I can come up with that involves all the Fish at once. Is there a better way around it?

I hope that helps everyone?

 

[Prime Ordeal]

Right, if the filter is definitely not cycled (or has become uncycled) then water changes are the way to go. You must use a dechlorinator which also detoxifies the ammonia. Then you just change water to keep the ammonia and nitrite below 0.25ppm.

If the uncycling is a result of the meds (quite likely) it shouldn't take long to recover, say a week or maybe two perhaps.

 

[BlueDragon]

Really, just a week or two?

OK, so yesterday my internet was down, so couldn't come on to say what I've done. Sorry about that.

I went to the petshop and got some gravel from out of one of their cycled tanks (it's been cycled for years). I couldn't get any filter media 'cause they use under-gravel filters and what I thought was a filter is actually just part of their bubble maker thingies. But this gravel is full of algae and it's from a sale tank, not a quarintine tank. I've been asured it's good stuff.

I actually had a job getting anything 'cause the girl who works there didn't have a clue what I meant. But lucky me 'the boss' was in and she was quite happy to get me some (and did also check to make sure she didn't have any filter media out back, but she didn't). It's good to be friends with 'the boss' : )

So I brought that home (about a two-hand full amount) and I've put most in the main tank suspended in the breeder net hanging in there, and now Flame is in the new quarintine tank (with own filter) with the rest of the gravel just sitting straite on the bottom. I've been emptying the main tank and the little one to about half way every day, but so far there is very little change in either the Fish or the test results.
I say very little 'cause yesterday when I tested the amonia I couldn't deside weather it was yellow (meaning zero) or very light green (meaning 0.5). It was mostly yellow actually with green round the edges. It's a start I suppose, but not a great one.

Sunny is no better, still sitting on the gravel and still breathing fast. He looks a bit pathetic really, bless him. But he's so determined, he keeps on making himself get up and swim around for as long as he can manage.
I would put him in the little tank with Flame (with the idea that it will be the first to start to get better test readings with it being so much smaller and therefor will make both Fish feel better quicker), but I don't want him to catch anything off her if she's contagious. And I don't want to stress him out either.

Flame now has what I can only describe as 'fluff' on her tail. I'm reluctant to say 'cotton wool' 'cause it doesn't look as solid as that, more... hairy. I can actually see 'hairs' coming off it so I'm not conviced it's the Columnaris come back and I think she had fin rot. But I haven't treated her for it yet 'cause whatever I treat her with will kill the bacteria so all this will be pointless... again. So I think my bet bet to save her is to just try and get the water right ASAP. Is that right?
I thought about putting MB directly onto her tail, but I'm not sure if that will effect the water too, even if it's not in the water as such.
She's hardly moving at all and to be honest I'm wondering how long I should leave her like this before it becomes cruel...

I'm treating every day with the Safe Water and the Safe guard in both tanks. But the Safe Guard doesn't seem to be doing anything to get rid of the amonia? It says to only use it once a week and in new water before it goes in the tank but I'm treating it as though the whole tank is new water 'cause I don't see the harm right now and there's nothing in it that can harm the Fish I don't think. Doing the same with the Safe Water which is the liquid bacteria treater.

I'm also just feeding a tiny amount of flake food every other day right now, just to keep waist to a minimum. They're acting starved, bless them, but I'm sure they're fine and they do still have their plants in there, the algae on their wood and whatever is on the gravel (algae, snail eggs etc).

If my water has amonia in it will changing the water every day not just be topping it up with more amonia? I'm really worried that I'm making things worse by changing the water?

Over all nothing has changed and I'm afraid I'm going to loose both Flame and Sunny if I don't fix things very soon. But I'm doing everything I can think of doing, is there anything else I'm missing?

 

[Prime Ordeal]

If you tap water has ammonia in it the Safe Guard (I'm assuming this is King British?) will detoxify it for about 24 hours. However the ammonia will still be read by your test kit, even though it is safe for the fish. That does mean that you need to be topping up the Safe Start every 24 hours to be sure it's still detoxifying the ammonia but, as you're having to do water changes, you're doing that automatically.

You do need to continue the water changes if the ammonia is rising but, of course, you're always going to see at least the amount in your tap water if you test immediately after a water change until the filter gets cycled again. Do the ammonia test a few hours after you've done a water change.

There are several meds that won't harm the filter bacteria and you could even use salt but I would recommend Waterlife Protozin or if you can't get that then Iterpet number 8.

 

[BlueDragon]

Yes, it's King British.

I have aquarium salts, Tonic Salt, that I was treating Mouse (the little Platy with Columnaris) with, but the other Fish seemed to hate it and seemed to get poorly from it? Maybe it was just a coincidence? I was only putting a teaspoon in a day after water changes, so I thought it wouldn't do any harm. I still have it anyway and I could put some into the water today to start things off with for her?

The problem is that my bank card is blocked right now due to my details being stolen so I'm unable to buy anything off the internet. If I really need to get hold of something other than the salt then I could ask if my mam would mind buying it for me I suppose but I'm not sure she'd be able to as her money is really tight. I'll ask if she could today and then I'll know.
The petshop don't sell either of those things.

I'll test the water a few hours after I've changed it then, I've been doing it an hour afterwards but I suppose that's not very long.

Yes I'm putting the Safe Guard into the tank every day, so it never goes more than 24 hours without it being renewed. Same with the Safe Water.

 

[Prime Ordeal]

You can generally use salt even with so-called salt sensitive fish. The trick is to introduce it very gradually and not just spoon it all in in one go as you did. Add the salt to a glass of tank water, make sure it's well dissolved and add it over the course of a few hours. Equally you must not reduce the salt content rapidly by, for example, doing a 50% water change with fresh, unsalted, water.

I'm amazed that you can't source those meds locally, they're the two best selling brands in the UK but you could always get them off the internet. And, as with almost any med, be sure that you are aerating the tank really well as they do tend to use up oxygen at a great rate.

 

[BlueDragon]

Well, my poor Sunny Boy died in the night.

I woke up this morning and I was feeling upset. Of course I didn't know why then. But I suppose now I do. I must have known somehow.

Sunny was my favourite, I know your not supposed to have favourites but he was. He was like a living rainbow, shimmering whenever he moved. This is what I feared and why I chose to do a Fishless cycle in the first place. I know it can't be helped now, but I still feel very bad that it's my fault. That I wasn't able to fix things quick enough. And the most horrible part is that I know how he died. He slowly suffercated... and I just had to sit there and let him 'cause I couldn't do anything else.

Flame is very bad and I'm considering putting her to sleep. It's not nice to see her the way she is and I know now that I left Mouse too long really. I should have helped him off to sleep before I did and I don't want Flame to end up the same way.


I did the water change yesterday and I did the tests about six-ish hours later. I was out so it couldn't have been earlier. For the most part everything is still the same but ther was one or two little things I'm not sure what to make of.

Yesterdays test results for the main tank:

Ammonia: 0.5

PH: 6.4 / 6.8
KH: 50
GH: 125
Nitrate: 0?
Nitrite: 0

The same was shown for Flame's tank but PH read 6.4.

What I'm not sure on is why would the PH go up one in the main tank? The colour was actually half way between 6.5 and 6.8 so I'm not sure what it really was. And secondly is the Nitrate. On the chart that tells you what the colours mean it goes from very pale lilac to very deep purple the higher the numbers go. But this reading I did yesterday was almost white. I've put a question mark after the zero 'cause I'm not sure if it still would be zero? It can't be less than zero? So I'm not sure what to make of that. But I'll see what todays tests say and see if there's any same-ness.

OK, I'll put the salt in gradually. It says to put it in gradually one teaspoon a day on the box, but I must have missunderstood. I'll pour it in gradually over the day. I did put a teaspoon in the quarintine tank yesterday for Flame, but this morning there's no change. I do disolve it in some tank water before I pour it in the tank, make sure there's no crystals left. But I'll be more carefull today. Could I risk two teaspoons today if I was to pour in in slowly over a good few hours? Or is there a risk of shock?

I'll be burying Sunny in my herb pot outside, along with Mouse and Bluey. I suppose it's a nice day for it...

 

[BlueDragon]

I'm not quite getting these results.

So yesterdays ones were, for the main tank:

Ammonia: 0! Yey!

PH: 6.4
KH: 50
GH: 125
Nitrate: 0 / 10
Nitrite: 0

So I had a good luck at the colour of the Nitrate reading and it's definatly a very, very pale pink. It's not white like the day before. On the chart it says very light pink means 10 (the colour square next to zero), but this colour on the strip is so light, it doesn't match the pink of the chart. So I'm not sure weather to say it's still zero or to assume it's up to 10. I suppose time might tell and todays results might show it being a bit pinker.

The quarentine tank with poor Flame in there read:

Amonia: 0/ 0.5

PH: 6.4
KH: 50
GH: 125
Nitrate: 0 / 10
Nitrite: 0

The ammonia reading was doing that yellow (meaning zero) with a slight green 'border' thing again. But it was mostly yellow.

Again the Nitrate was a very, very pale pink.

I really don't know what to assume it is. Is it even possable that it could be going up yet? It's only been a few days : /