Cichlids - Should I?......

[Ryan_W]

Evening all,

Thought I'd pop into this section, ask a few questions and hopefully get the answers I'm looking for.

I've currently got 2 small tanks (see my signature for details), and I've got a 450L tank coming on the 3rd Nov.

Now, I really want a Cichlid tank since I think all the species (especially the Mbuna) are just beautiful fish.

Only problem is, I don't want to get rid of my Dwarf Cichlids since I love them to bits. Am I going to be stuck with Firemouths, Angels, Keyholes and Kribs?

I'm rather keen to go down the Angel and Severum route, they're rather colourful and peaceful aren't they?!...

So..... What should I do? I wish I could have a full on Mbuna tank, but I can't bear the thought of giving up my current stock.

Cheers all,

Ryan

 

[james_fish]

Well just keep the Dwarfs in there current home.

Limit your new Cichlid tank to one area. eg. Malawi or more specifically Mbuna, or possibly a Lake Tanganyika setup. Alternatively, a South American or Central American setup. You could even go very specific and create a bio type of a certain area of Malawi, but I wouldn't know much about that...

As for your new tank, 450 litres? With proper filtration and maintenence, you could get A LOT of Mbuna in there.
I'd go for like 20 of 3 species or something, or maybe 10 or 6 species. I'd start off with something like Yellow Lab's or Blue Cobalt's.

Buy yeah, just keep the Dwarfs in the current setup.

James.

 

[Wills]

Evening all,
I'm rather keen to go down the Angel and Severum route, they're rather colourful and peaceful aren't they?!...
Cheers all,
Ryan

Well thats all the motivation I need to butt into this thread

If you want to keep your dwarfs in this tank then its best to go down the South American route.

From the fish in your signature I would look to move these species to the new tank - 1 L333, 2 Umbrella Cichlids, 2 Cockatoo Cichlids, 5 Emperor Tetras, 6 Leopard Cories.

Then I would up your Emperor Tetras to 10-15 and the same for the Leopard Cories - these will act as dither fish with the following suggestions -

In a 450 liter tank following a theme of South America and housing your current dwarfs I would probably look at doing something like

1 Heros sp. Rotkeil (Rotkeil Severum)
4 Angelfish - P.Scalarae - any colour variants would work they are all the same species
4 Satanoperca Auticeps (or any of the Satanoperca species) - though any of the Surinamensis Geophagus or sp. Tapajo would work in this tank, but the Satanoperca species are more peaceful.
2 Apistogramma Borelli
2 Apistogramma Cacatuoides
8 Spotted Headstanders
15 Emperor Tetras
3 L333 - maybe try to breed them?
15 Leopard Cories

So here are my reasons for why I think this set up would work well. The Angelfish would have the upper levels in this tank to themselves though the Severum will invariably swim all over the place. Angelfish and Severums are a good combo that often live together in good nature.

The Satanoperca are a type of eartheater which are one of my favorite families of fish. Satanopercas are one of the most peaceful of the family and also a nice mid sized genus that depending on species gets to between 8-12 inches. The Auticeps I suggested is the smallest of the genus and IMO the most beautiful. Though like I say eartheaters from the Geophagus species would work like Geophagus Surinamensis, Geophagus Altifrons and Geophagus sp.Tapajo Red Head - though the Satanopercas are much more peaceful than the Geophagus species but these are a very peaceful family in general. Though avoid species like Geophagus Brasiliensis and Geophagus Stiendachnary as these are more boistrus and quite different to the other species I mentioned.

In the wild Apistogramma species are one of the most common fish all over South America and as such are often found alongside the larger cichlids I suggested above. In your tank the interactions between the Apistos and the Satanopercas will be quite peaceful with the Apistos possibly showing more aggression to the other fish when they get too close to their spawning site. I would set the tank up with little hide aways for the apistos to breed and hide in that is too small for the other species of cichlid to fit in - this would be a last resort for them to flee too but all but the angels I would say are a very safe mix. But then again I would class the angels as low risk again as the apistos and angels inhabit totally different regions of the tank so would rarely clash in a tank of that size if ever.

The headstanders and emperor tetras would work as dithers for these fish, the headstanders would be dithers more for the larger cichlids and the emperors would be dithers for the apistos, the emperors usually stay higher up in the water column than some tetras and this would give the apistos confidence to come out more in a large tank with larger fish. It will also help the eartheaters when they are youngsters.

The cories will help keep the bottom tidy and the plecs could turn into a breeding trio if you can find the right genders and it will add an other dimension to the tank with regards variety of species. In this set up you would have quite a lot of levels of fauna from the Amazon in your tank between small catfish, sucker mouth catfish, small cichlids, eartheaters, characins, larger characins and so on

Then with the remaining fish I would split them between your 110 liter tank and your 64 liter tank, perhaps giving the rams the lead fish in the 110 liter tank and giving them a high temperature and low ph that they need for the long term care Almond leaves will help you with the ph and is a good alternative to chemicals (and somewhat safer)

I hope thats helped This stock list is by no means exhaustive of your options there are still a lot more fish you could mix with your apistos with good success in a 450 liter tank. With a South American Cichlid tank the none cichlid species are just as important as the cichlids for the success of the tank and as a result you get a larger variety of species in the tank.

By all means though investigate the african side of the hobby its something I really want to do at some point and wish I knew more about them Certainly a contender for my tank number 2 plans

Wills

 

[james_fish]

Evening all,
I'm rather keen to go down the Angel and Severum route, they're rather colourful and peaceful aren't they?!...
Cheers all,
Ryan

Well thats all the motivation I need to butt into this thread

If you want to keep your dwarfs in this tank then its best to go down the South American route.

From the fish in your signature I would look to move these species to the new tank - 1 L333, 2 Umbrella Cichlids, 2 Cockatoo Cichlids, 5 Emperor Tetras, 6 Leopard Cories.

Then I would up your Emperor Tetras to 10-15 and the same for the Leopard Cories - these will act as dither fish with the following suggestions -

In a 450 liter tank following a theme of South America and housing your current dwarfs I would probably look at doing something like

1 Heros sp. Rotkeil (Rotkeil Severum)
4 Angelfish - P.Scalarae - any colour variants would work they are all the same species
4 Satanoperca Auticeps (or any of the Satanoperca species) - though any of the Surinamensis Geophagus or sp. Tapajo would work in this tank, but the Satanoperca species are more peaceful.
2 Apistogramma Borelli
2 Apistogramma Cacatuoides
8 Spotted Headstanders
15 Emperor Tetras
3 L333 - maybe try to breed them?
15 Leopard Cories

So here are my reasons for why I think this set up would work well. The Angelfish would have the upper levels in this tank to themselves though the Severum will invariably swim all over the place. Angelfish and Severums are a good combo that often live together in good nature.

The Satanoperca are a type of eartheater which are one of my favorite families of fish. Satanopercas are one of the most peaceful of the family and also a nice mid sized genus that depending on species gets to between 8-12 inches. The Auticeps I suggested is the smallest of the genus and IMO the most beautiful. Though like I say eartheaters from the Geophagus species would work like Geophagus Surinamensis, Geophagus Altifrons and Geophagus sp.Tapajo Red Head - though the Satanopercas are much more peaceful than the Geophagus species but these are a very peaceful family in general. Though avoid species like Geophagus Brasiliensis and Geophagus Stiendachnary as these are more boistrus and quite different to the other species I mentioned.

In the wild Apistogramma species are one of the most common fish all over South America and as such are often found alongside the larger cichlids I suggested above. In your tank the interactions between the Apistos and the Satanopercas will be quite peaceful with the Apistos possibly showing more aggression to the other fish when they get too close to their spawning site. I would set the tank up with little hide aways for the apistos to breed and hide in that is too small for the other species of cichlid to fit in - this would be a last resort for them to flee too but all but the angels I would say are a very safe mix. But then again I would class the angels as low risk again as the apistos and angels inhabit totally different regions of the tank so would rarely clash in a tank of that size if ever.

The headstanders and emperor tetras would work as dithers for these fish, the headstanders would be dithers more for the larger cichlids and the emperors would be dithers for the apistos, the emperors usually stay higher up in the water column than some tetras and this would give the apistos confidence to come out more in a large tank with larger fish. It will also help the eartheaters when they are youngsters.

The cories will help keep the bottom tidy and the plecs could turn into a breeding trio if you can find the right genders and it will add an other dimension to the tank with regards variety of species. In this set up you would have quite a lot of levels of fauna from the Amazon in your tank between small catfish, sucker mouth catfish, small cichlids, eartheaters, characins, larger characins and so on

Then with the remaining fish I would split them between your 110 liter tank and your 64 liter tank, perhaps giving the rams the lead fish in the 110 liter tank and giving them a high temperature and low ph that they need for the long term care Almond leaves will help you with the ph and is a good alternative to chemicals (and somewhat safer)

I hope thats helped This stock list is by no means exhaustive of your options there are still a lot more fish you could mix with your apistos with good success in a 450 liter tank. With a South American Cichlid tank the none cichlid species are just as important as the cichlids for the success of the tank and as a result you get a larger variety of species in the tank.

By all means though investigate the african side of the hobby its something I really want to do at some point and wish I knew more about them Certainly a contender for my tank number 2 plans

Wills

Great advice from Wills, I know who i'm going to if I go down this route

James.

 

[Ryan_W]

Wow, thanks for that lengthy reply Wills!

I think I'll take your advice and go for the South American route so I can keep my fish rather than sell them off and go the typical Mbuna route (I'm only allowed one tank)...

This is what I'd like to stock:

1 Rotkeil Severum
1 Golden Severum
4 Angelfish
2 Satanoperca Leucosticta (Eartheater)
2 Satanoperca Acuticeps
3 L333
2 Apistogramma Borelli - Maybe more?
2 Apistogramma Cacatuoides - Maybe more?
2 GBRs - Maybe more?
8 Spotted Headstanders - Or Hatchet Fish
15 Emperor Tetras
15 Leopard Cories
1 Royal Plec?

Will all the above be okay in around pH 7.6 - 8?

My GBRs are doing fine in pH 8 at the moment, they've just laid their second batch of eggs.

If the pH is going to be an issure, then Mbuna it is?!........

Cheers,

Ryan

 

[Wills]

A ph of 8 is not really ideal but my water is quite high Ph however if you can lower it in some way via those almond leaves it might help out? Stuff like the Severums should be fine in it but the Satanopercas might suffer in it. So maybe consider some tank bred Geophagus Surinimensis - these will actually be Altifrons hybrids but are still nice looking, they are widely bred so not so much of a worry in tap water. I have a Satanoperca Daemon and he is suffering a little in my water nothing serious but not 100% a little worrying atm for me but not overly.

With the apistos and rams. If you up the Apistos go for an other female of each species I would still avoid adding the rams as the bottom is quite full with your other cichlids. But if you wanted to substitute them for one of the pairs/trios of apistos.

Ah sorry just re read and realised you mentioned only keeping one tank. Im in a similar situation

Hmm based on these kind of developments I would probably do

1 Rotkeil Severum and 1 Golden Severum and 2 Angelfish

or (due to if the sevs breed and 2 pairs of angelfish breed its going to be a volatile tank, the angels and apistos will most likley breed anyway but adding a breeding pair of sevs might be an issue)

1 Rotkeil Severum OR 1 Golden severum
4 Angelfish
4 Geophagus Surinimensis or 4 Geophagus sp. Tapajo Red Head or 4 Satanoperca Leucosticta or 4 Satanoperca Acuticeps - geophagus species are all gregarious and do better in groupings rather than pairs.
3 Apistogramma Borelli - 1 male 2 female
3 Apistogramma Cacatuoides - 1 male 2 female - or 2 GBR - from current stock
8 Spotted Headstanders or 12 Hatchet Fish - quite a size difference between the two species
15 Emperor Tetras
15 Leopard Cories
3 L333 or 1 Royal Plec L190 - although not a decent comparison I would thin the stock further with the royal in there as well the amount of poo from a royal is just insane - have you seen MattLees new one in the new worlds section? I used to have a few small plecs in my tank but the poo is just insane so I swapped to whiptail catfish and I love them much more active than the plecs I had always out and about and dangling off my wood.

What are your plans for filtration? Also what are the dimensions of the tank?

Wills

 

[Ryan_W]

I think I'll go for the Sev (dunno which one) and Angelfifh. The big decider for me will be the other largeish Cichlids. I really like the Geophagus Surinimensis and Geophagus sp. Tapajo Red Heads. Could I potentially get 4 of each?

I'll stay clear of the large Plecs, seen Matts and that's put me right off, even though it is a beautiful fish! My local Maidenhead Aquatics has Whiptail Catfish, so I'll go for them. How many do you think? I really like the Red Line Torpedo Barbs too, could these fit into my stocking rather than the Headstanders?

Are Firemouths out to equation since they can bit a bit of a pain with smaller fish? They’re also pretty similar to the Geos, but they’re easy to get hold of (for me)...

My tank measures 74L x 20W x 18H.

Filtration shall be an FX5 followed up by probably another FX5 in the following months...

Cheers,

Ryan

 

[Wills]

Ah nice size tank then - although it is the bare minimum for angels with regards the height. So if your not 100% set on them you could maybe scrap them and get 2 sets of the Geophagus instead? The length of this tank would allow for this.

Firemouths - I would not do Central American cichlids with the apistos simply because it is quite unpredictable how the two will interact - also while the geophagus group might breed in the tank it wont be a massive issue as they are quite chilled out parents more involved with caring for the fry rather than protecting and chasing away other fish where as Firemouths would be more aggressive in breeding. Like I say its the interaction between the dwarfs and centrals that is difficult to predict.

So based on what you said that would look like

1 Rotkeil Severum
4 Geophagus Surinimensis
4 Geophagus sp. Tapajo Red Head
3 Apistogramma Borelli - 1 male 2 female
3 Apistogramma Cacatuoides - 1 male 2 female
8 Denison Barbs - the red line sharks
15 Emperor Tetras
15 Leopard Cories
3 L333
3/4 Whiptail plecs - there are some stunning species out there so keep your eye out

Wills

 

[Ryan_W]

Thanks Wills!

Again, another top reply! You’re definitely helping me out with my stocking choice!

Are you 100% against putting both a Rotkeil and a Red Spotted/Golden Sev in the same tank?

The rest of the list is pretty much spot on. I may go half and half with the Tetras and Corys.

Something like:

8 Emperor Tetras
8 Yellow Congo/other large Tetra
8 Leopard Corys
8 Green Laser Corys

I’m just hoping that I’ll have some colour in this tank and not regret turning down the Mbuna set-up I had in mind.

As for thank set-up, I was thinking black sand, 25kg of coral rock, fair bit of wood, couple of flower pots/coconut caves, random rock caves and some live plants. I know the Geos will dig the plants out but it doesn’t bother me.

Really liking the Denison Barbs, love their colour!

Thanks once again for your help.

Ryan

 

[Wills]

Hi you really dont want to add any coral rock or any thing that will raise the Ph of the water for South American cichlids. Ideally they want lower ph and soft water but can adapt to neutral water.

If you want to juggle the Severums around maybe drop the Angels and then get the two Sevs (maybe more) and then up the dwarf cichlids so that could actually work out better for you with regards to keeping the fish you have at present. When mixing the larger cichlids like Severums and then looking to the more aggressive cichlids that get to a similar size its important to give them space just incase they breed. So in removing the angels from this equation its going to kind of pre emt what could happen which is often the best way with cichlids.

Just a note on the gold and red sevs - typically what has started to happen with these is that the gold and red strains are actually a little more aggressive than the natural green or other closer to natural types of severum. So just something to bear in mind.

The splitting of the schools is down to personal preference but 8 is a decent size still. I would not do the congo tetras as they are quite a large fish and probably more comparable to an alternative to the rose line sharks than the emperor tetras. If you wanted a second smaller school maybe look at stuff like Flame Tetras, Columbian Tetras, Bleeding Heart Tetras - even something like Hemiodus gracilis would work nice if you could find them

Since were not sticking to a South American biotope you could probably snip bits of colour in from other continents in a similar way to how the Denison Barbs are working so that could be things like Golden Wonder Killifish a trio of them would work up at the top and would give you more activity up there but would not cause conflict like the angels could.

So that revised stocking could look like

1 Gold Severum - other strains/species to consider - Green, sp.Belum, Super Red, Notatus - give them a google
1 Rotkeil Severum - equally interchangeable with any of the above
4 Geophagus Surinimensis
4 Geophagus sp. Tapajo Red Head2
2 Blue Rams
3 Apistogramma Borelli - 1 male 2 female
3 Apistogramma Cacatuoides - 1 male 2 female
8 Denison Barbs
8 Columbian Tetras
8 Emperor Tetras
8 Green Lazer Cories
8 Leopard Cories
3 L333
3/4 Whiptail plecs

Wills

 

[bullit]

list looks #105### hot wills

 

[Wills]

ha ha thanks guess whos bored sat at home looking for a job

Having a few second thoughts on the 2 groups of Geos - what I would do is get both groups young and let them grow which will take litterally years and thin the two groups as/if you run into issues. Also with the sevs - get a smaller gold or red sev if you pick one of the other species to go with it as golds max out at a bigger size than say rotkiels for examples

Wills

 

[Ryan_W]

Thanks again!

Soooo.... Before I go off on a tangent and end up trying to fit in even more fish, here's my 90% final list:

1 Gold Severum/Red Dotted Severum
1 Rotkeil Severum
4 Geophagus Surinimensis
4 Geophagus sp. Tapajo Red Head2
2 Blue Rams
3 Apistogramma Borelli - 1 male 2 female
3 Apistogramma Cacatuoides - 1 male 2 female
8 Denison Barbs
8 Columbian Tetras
8 Emperor Tetras
8 Green Lazer Cories
8 Leopard Cories
3 L333
3 Whiptail plecs
3 Golden Wonder Killfish

Now is there anything else that I can add which has massive amounts of bold colour to finish off the tank?

Thanks,

Ryan

 

[Ryan_W]

Now the angels are out the equation, how about a Blue Acara?... Love these fish!

 

[Wills]

I would probably call

1 Gold Severum/Red Dotted Severum
1 Rotkeil Severum
4 Geophagus Surinimensis
4 Geophagus sp. Tapajo Red Head2
2 Blue Rams
3 Apistogramma Borelli - 1 male 2 female
3 Apistogramma Cacatuoides - 1 male 2 female
8 Denison Barbs
8 Columbian Tetras
8 Emperor Tetras
8 Green Lazer Cories
8 Leopard Cories
3 L333
3 Whiptail plecs
3 Golden Wonder Killfish

100% stocked to be fair, its been stretched quite a bit but thats because of the length and width of the tank. If you want to have other fish specifically you would have to juggle other fish out of the stocking list.

If you wanted a Blue Acara - I would probably drop one of the Geophagus groups and get the BA? But not sure how the BA would interact with the apistos.

Wills