Canisters or sump??

If you want this to sink in more . . .

You got to look at the history of the sump itself.

Where did it start?

It all started with the marine, specifically the reef, hobby, with the introduction of the wet/dry filter. In those days (late 80s, early 90s), wet/dry was all the rage for reef keeping. It opened up a new way of doing fish keeping. Instead of using a canister with limited media, you now had a secondary tank what the main tank water flowed through. The possibilities were endless: to skimmers, reactors, refugiums, heaters, probes etc. . . And over time the reef keeping hobby realised that the wet/dry trickle tower was just a burden on the system, it was a nitrate factory, it was much better to skim off the organics before it could go through the nitrogen cycle. So they abandoned the wet/dry trickle tower - but they kept the sump.

And that's why nearly all commercially available reef ready aquariums come with a sump - there is not better way to do it. But all this comes at a cost. That cost is complexity and price.

Sumps are expensive to implement, of that there can be no discussion. Canisters are just what they are: just a container with a pump attached and some piping to get it connected to the tank, nothing more.

At the end of the day it's all down to cost. The reefing side of the hobby is willing to spend the money to get things right, and freshwater side is not - and probably doesn't need to.

Sumps have never been popular in freshwater planted tanks due to the fact they are complex and, most important, I really don't think they are needed - and this from someone who runs a sump on a planted tank. I've always suspected that the requirements for a planted tank is probably no biological filtration at all. All you really need is some sort of mechanical filter that will create good flow in the tank and that should be it, the biological filtration will be in the substrate and the plants, the filter's only job should be to just polish the water of detritus.

But again, I have to look at this forum: most people here don't even want to spend the money on what a good sump set up would cost. Because it IS a LOT of money. Most of the time sumps have to be planned into the design of the tank, unless you get a syphon box and know how to use it - and most don't BTW, which is why syphon boxes are not popular at all. So this would mean drilling holes for most people, or start again and buy a sump ready system.

That's why we shouldn't even be asking sump or canister. Because there was never any real competition.

All a sump is, is an implementation of a holding area for anything you want to work on the tank. And most hobbyists use sumps this way. This allowed you to keep most of the equipment out of the tank, that's what I use my sump for. You cannot do this with a canister filter, and if you try it will always be a second rate, clumsy, and annoying system to mainten and service.
 
Interesting perspective! I have no background in reef setups. Zero really. But in the 90's I built a 4.5m (~15', I think, for my fellow Americans) diameter pond in my parents' backyard. There I used a very large biofilter with scoria and matting from aquarium filters as the mechanical component. I think it is that background that immediately led me toward sumps when I began in the aquarium hobby again.

Now I am not saying that was a great call as I did setup a planted tank. The filter tanks up the majority of the stand, and has caused some issues. But, lessons were learned. Over-filtration is a thing, at least on planted tanks. I am thinking about reworking the tanks to do some smaller African cichlids. More fish. No plants. Might make the sump more of a benefit than a drawback. Notice, I'm not giving up my sump! I think it was @eatyourpeas who earlier in this thread said that filtration is like a hobby within the hobby. I think that is true for me.
 
And well, I am going down the road of sump for a marine tank to create a Puget Sound biotope. I really like how you can customize it to your heart's desire. My current challenge is space and the need to accommodate a chiller. Lots of interesting components to learn about.
 
If you want this to sink in more . . .

You got to look at the history of the sump itself.

Where did it start?

It all started with the marine, specifically the reef, hobby, with the introduction of the wet/dry filter. In those days (late 80s, early 90s), wet/dry was all the rage for reef keeping. It opened up a new way of doing fish keeping. Instead of using a canister with limited media, you now had a secondary tank what the main tank water flowed through. The possibilities were endless: to skimmers, reactors, refugiums, heaters, probes etc. . . And over time the reef keeping hobby realised that the wet/dry trickle tower was just a burden on the system, it was a nitrate factory, it was much better to skim off the organics before it could go through the nitrogen cycle. So they abandoned the wet/dry trickle tower - but they kept the sump.

And that's why nearly all commercially available reef ready aquariums come with a sump - there is not better way to do it. But all this comes at a cost. That cost is complexity and price.

Sumps are expensive to implement, of that there can be no discussion. Canisters are just what they are: just a container with a pump attached and some piping to get it connected to the tank, nothing more.

At the end of the day it's all down to cost. The reefing side of the hobby is willing to spend the money to get things right, and freshwater side is not - and probably doesn't need to.

Sumps have never been popular in freshwater planted tanks due to the fact they are complex and, most important, I really don't think they are needed - and this from someone who runs a sump on a planted tank. I've always suspected that the requirements for a planted tank is probably no biological filtration at all. All you really need is some sort of mechanical filter that will create good flow in the tank and that should be it, the biological filtration will be in the substrate and the plants, the filter's only job should be to just polish the water of detritus.

But again, I have to look at this forum: most people here don't even want to spend the money on what a good sump set up would cost. Because it IS a LOT of money. Most of the time sumps have to be planned into the design of the tank, unless you get a syphon box and know how to use it - and most don't BTW, which is why syphon boxes are not popular at all. So this would mean drilling holes for most people, or start again and buy a sump ready system.

That's why we shouldn't even be asking sump or canister. Because there was never any real competition.

All a sump is, is an implementation of a holding area for anything you want to work on the tank. And most hobbyists use sumps this way. This allowed you to keep most of the equipment out of the tank, that's what I use my sump for. You cannot do this with a canister filter, and if you try it will always be a second rate, clumsy, and annoying system to mainten and service.
Yea, that’s what I said... ‘yes’
 
Over-filtration is a thing, at least on planted tanks.

And where did you hear this from? From so called self appointed experts? From so called planted tank forums where most probably don't know what they're talking about? Or from a recent book by someone who knows very little?

Tom Barr and his followers, and maybe a few others so called "experts" and social media influencers, would like to tell you you should get the green colour on the CO2 drop checker (30 mg/l !!!!), and aim for 10 times tank turnover on an oversized canister filter.

Aquatic companies love this, because it means you'll buy bigger filters and use more of their equipment.

Have you ever wondered to yourself: do I need to follow this? And if you raise an objection they'll come up with all sorts of crap about how CO2 is harder to dissolve than oxygen, the need to make sure it's stable, and the need to constantly have flow going through the tank so that CO2 is evenly distributed so all the plants can get it, etc, etc, more and more rubbish pseudo science along the same lines. . .

If you do the above you'll pi$$ off your fish, because there's no need to have such high flow or high CO2. It's not necessary. When you see a photo of my tank you can judge for yourself. I run about 3 times tank turn over, and my drop checker is blue, I'm running probably less than 9 mg/l CO2.

All of this is a myth. There's no need for such excessive flow. Hell, even some of those idiots on the other forums are putting in flow pumps in their planted tank - even gyres!!! Has anyone EVER asked the question why ADA (and specifically Amano himself) DON'T have internal pumps in their tanks? Because it would spoil the aquascape and, more importantly, it's NOT needed.

And if you follow my journal thread closely I'll go into Tom Barr's planted tank setup and show to you, which you'll be able to verify for yourself, that this so called expert is only running about 3 times tank turnover on his own planted tank! The videos of his tank are still available on youtube for everyone to see, but it seems I'm the only one to point out this blatant contradiction of his. Why promote 10 time tank turn over when you aren't doing it yourself?

And if you look at Amano's personal tank, the very famous one, I would hazard a guess that his turn over on that 9000 litre tank is about 3 times tank volume. NOT 10. If that's good enough for him, it should be good enough for anyone.
 
  • Like
Reactions: 663
Um. So... I was suggesting with the statement you quoted, it is indeed possible to over-filter a planted tank. I don't think we have a disagreement here. But, let me know if I'm wrong.

Also, I am completely unfamiliar with Tom Barr. Suppose I should look him up.
 
If you want this to sink in more . . .

You got to look at the history of the sump itself.

Where did it start?

It all started with the marine, specifically the reef, hobby, with the introduction of the wet/dry filter. In those days (late 80s, early 90s), wet/dry was all the rage for reef keeping. It opened up a new way of doing fish keeping. Instead of using a canister with limited media, you now had a secondary tank what the main tank water flowed through. The possibilities were endless: to skimmers, reactors, refugiums, heaters, probes etc. . . And over time the reef keeping hobby realised that the wet/dry trickle tower was just a burden on the system, it was a nitrate factory, it was much better to skim off the organics before it could go through the nitrogen cycle. So they abandoned the wet/dry trickle tower - but they kept the sump.

And that's why nearly all commercially available reef ready aquariums come with a sump - there is not better way to do it. But all this comes at a cost. That cost is complexity and price.

Sumps are expensive to implement, of that there can be no discussion. Canisters are just what they are: just a container with a pump attached and some piping to get it connected to the tank, nothing more.

At the end of the day it's all down to cost. The reefing side of the hobby is willing to spend the money to get things right, and freshwater side is not - and probably doesn't need to.

Sumps have never been popular in freshwater planted tanks due to the fact they are complex and, most important, I really don't think they are needed - and this from someone who runs a sump on a planted tank. I've always suspected that the requirements for a planted tank is probably no biological filtration at all. All you really need is some sort of mechanical filter that will create good flow in the tank and that should be it, the biological filtration will be in the substrate and the plants, the filter's only job should be to just polish the water of detritus.

But again, I have to look at this forum: most people here don't even want to spend the money on what a good sump set up would cost. Because it IS a LOT of money. Most of the time sumps have to be planned into the design of the tank, unless you get a syphon box and know how to use it - and most don't BTW, which is why syphon boxes are not popular at all. So this would mean drilling holes for most people, or start again and buy a sump ready system.

That's why we shouldn't even be asking sump or canister. Because there was never any real competition.

All a sump is, is an implementation of a holding area for anything you want to work on the tank. And most hobbyists use sumps this way. This allowed you to keep most of the equipment out of the tank, that's what I use my sump for. You cannot do this with a canister filter, and if you try it will always be a second rate, clumsy, and annoying system to mainten and service.
"You cannot do this with a canister filter, and if you try it will always be a second rate, clumsy, and annoying system to mainten and service."

The only equipment IN my tank with my Eheim canister is the intake and outflow pipes, and those are obscured by plants...and the canister is neither "clumsy" nor difficult to maintain...those are subjective, not objective terms...
 
Last edited:
Um. So... I was suggesting with the statement you quoted, it is indeed possible to over-filter a planted tank. I don't think we have a disagreement here. But, let me know if I'm wrong.

Planted tank forums promote overfiltering. Evidence is pointing to the fact that filtering isn't as important as it is made out to be since the plants and substrate is going to do most of the work.

If you have a fish only aquarium over filtering is the way to go, you have no choice anyway.

The only equipment IN my tank with my Eheim canister is the intake and outflow pipes, and those are obscured by plants...and the canister is neither "clumsy" nor difficult to maintain...those are subjective, not objective terms...

try adding to your canister an inline heater, and inline CO2 reactor, an inline temperature probe etc. . . and you'll see your pipe work increase, that's my point. It's not subjective. I rather not have these equipment in the tank.

But again, the issue is mainly cost. If you've got lots of messy fish and a lot of waste produced canisters are going to be awful. If you have a lightly stocked planted tank then it's going be be easy, you're not going to be bothered too much about any of this.

And as for difficult to maintain, ask yourself this: given only an Eheim canister how do you change out the mechanical filtration without disturbing the biological media? The answer is you can't You have to open the entire thing up and change it out. The other way is to have an inline mechanical filter before it hits the canister so you change that instead, which is what Oase tries to do in their canister design, but either way you have to stop the system and open it up to service it. In a sump you can design a separate compartment for the mechanical filter and change that out WHILE the system is still running if you want, the biological media will not be disturbed. The wet/dry sump filter for my 6 foot tank has been running since 2008, during that time I've not touched the biological tower at all, not ever in over 12 years now.
 
I have an inline heater, don't need CO2, and use a simple digital thermometer to check tank temp.

Mechanical filtration is cleaned every 3 months, when I clean the canister, which isn't difficult, or time consuming.

At any rate, what works for some well may not work for others, there's many ways to successfully keep stable aquariums and healthy fauna.
 
Look at the Hydor external heaters. I ran one for about 15 years with a canister. One less thing in the tank. Even with a canister drilled tanks are so much easier.
Hi @seangee,

What size external heater did you run on your 450? if you dont mind me asking.

Cheers
 
Let's raise the bar shall we?

Firstly, don't bother watching videos like this. I've only seen bits of it because, clearly, beginners are beginners. Those who have been long enough in the hobby just get tired of this rubbish:

VERY interesting read, AA. I wish I had seen the Super Jets before my last purchase. I feel "distracted" out of my cash! ?
 

Most reactions

trending

Back
Top