Can somebody settle my argument

Guyb93

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Ok iv been debating with somebody I know about electric blue acara, he is trying to tell me that they are man made fish and Cabot be found naturally in the wild , I say that’s ridiculous I accept they are more than likely a cross of electric blue ram and standard blue acara but I believe this is a natural thing and not man made , does anybody know ? I can’t find any information online to credit or discredit this theory , he is also telling me that they can’t be found in the wild , I know this to be false as I bought two wild caught from Columbia
 

Ch4rlie

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Am afraid electric blue acaras are indeed a manufactured strain.

Reliable source of information, Practical Fishkeeping writer Nathan Hill has been around fishkeeping for years and years and has a good reputation amongst many experienced keepers.

quoted -

“With modern man-made fish, traits tend to be augmented rather than crudely bolted on and obvious. Given how many times I’m asked the wild provenance of the Electric blue Acara, for example, it seems the breeders have achieved their aim of duping the hobby with an ‘authentic enough to be natural’ fish. “

 
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Guyb93

Guyb93

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Am afraid electric blue acaras are indeed a manufactured strain.

Reliable source of information, Practical Fishkeeping writer Nathan Hill has been around fishkeeping for years and years and has a good rep -

so my wild caught are not wild caught ? I only ask as iv read they were first recorded in the late 19th century caught in Trinidad , is that false info , I was always under the impression they were a natural hybrid
 

Ch4rlie

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Sorry that makes you lose your argument side of things with your pal :/

But definitely no electric blue acaras in the wild at all, it’s a manufactured strain bred specifically just for the electric blue colouration.

Nice fish specie though, I do like them myself.
 
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Guyb93

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Sorry that makes you lose your argument side of things with your pal :/

But definitely no electric blue acaras in the wild at all, it’s a manufactured strain bred specifically just for the electric blue colouration.

Nice fish specie though, I do like them myself.
Yeah he’s not my pal anymore now can’t let him be right ahahaha I feel stupid for buying wild caught from Columbia now as they have probably come from a scrap yard in Liverpool lol
 

utahfish

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That’s really disappointing lol so no electric blue can be found in the wild
I don't think anything has suggested that they can't be found in the wild I think the cites have said they are not "naturally occurring" fish in the wild ,that they are engineered by man.
Maybe your fish were wild caught doesn't mean they were naturally occurring.
If I walked into the Amazon and found a cheeseburger on the ground I wouldn't assume it was grown in the wild or naturally occurring, I'd assume it was engineered by man and placed in the wild.
 

HoldenOn

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I don't think anything has suggested that they can't be found in the wild I think the cites have said they are not "naturally occurring" fish in the wild ,that they are engineered by man.
Maybe your fish were wild caught doesn't mean they were naturally occurring.
If I walked into the Amazon and found a cheeseburger on the ground I wouldn't assume it was grown in the wild or naturally occurring, I'd assume it was engineered by man and placed in the wild.
I like your analogy :rofl:
 
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Guyb93

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I accept these are man made , but surely these fish could mix naturally in wild circumstances, I only ask as in general man made animals such as mules ,ligers ect are sterile and eba are not , how does that work lol , I’m curious that’s all is it being the difference in cross breeding mamilla to fish
 

The Lumpfish Guy

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I accept these are man made , but surely these fish could mix naturally in wild circumstances, I only ask as in general man made animals such as mules ,ligers ect are sterile and eba are not , how does that work lol , I’m curious that’s all is it being the difference in cross breeding mamilla to fish
There is a very long answer to this (Obviously) and It can get quite complicated, but briefly;

But there is still a running debate on what actually constitute a species (especially now with modern genetics), a very simple definition is "a group of living organisms consisting of similar individuals capable of exchanging genes or interbreeding."
So obviously that means Homo Sapiens and Salmo Salar are two distinct species from each other as they are distinct and unable to interbreed.

Many people include a caveat of " interbreed and produce fertile offspring" Which then allows for Tigers lions ect to still be distinct from each other as liger are not fertile.

Now this definition also allows for geographic limits to breeding. A Cichlid in South America for example might be able to breed with one in Africa, but never will because of geography. They may have the ability to do so if brought together, but naturally would never be able to do so.

Then it can be broken down further to behavioural, if one species breeds at night, and the other in the day, they may have the ability to interbreed but are isolated due to their behaviours. So if you as a human strip the fish at night and hold the gametes until you strip the day fish you could cross breed these two together. But they never would naturally.

Similarly where do you draw the line? would some fish we have isolated and bred in captivity for 50 years be a distinct species? could they interbreed with their wild counterparts if place back into that environment?
It's an interesting topic in Atlantic Salmon where researchers have to define which strain of Atlantic Salmon they use in trials because they are so removed from the wild populations and from each company which produces Salmon. Could they breed if they were placed back into the wild? Maybe (Salmon in pens are Tripliod, so no) but the broodstock? maybe? who knows?
 
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Guyb93

Guyb93

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There is a very long answer to this (Obviously) and It can get quite complicated, but briefly;

But there is still a running debate on what actually constitute a species (especially now with modern genetics), a very simple definition is "a group of living organisms consisting of similar individuals capable of exchanging genes or interbreeding."
So obviously that means Homo Sapiens and Salmo Salar are two distinct species from each other as they are distinct and unable to interbreed.

Many people include a caveat of " interbreed and produce fertile offspring" Which then allows for Tigers lions ect to still be distinct from each other as liger are not fertile.

Now this definition also allows for geographic limits to breeding. A Cichlid in South America for example might be able to breed with one in Africa, but never will because of geography. They may have the ability to do so if brought together, but naturally would never be able to do so.

Then it can be broken down further to behavioural, if one species breeds at night, and the other in the day, they may have the ability to interbreed but are isolated due to their behaviours. So if you as a human strip the fish at night and hold the gametes until you strip the day fish you could cross breed these two together. But they never would naturally.

Similarly where do you draw the line? would some fish we have isolated and bred in captivity for 50 years be a distinct species? could they interbreed with their wild counterparts if place back into that environment?
It's an interesting topic in Atlantic Salmon where researchers have to define which strain of Atlantic Salmon they use in trials because they are so removed from the wild populations and from each company which produces Salmon. Could they breed if they were placed back into the wild? Maybe (Salmon in pens are Tripliod, so no) but the broodstock? maybe? who knows?
I’m not gonna pretend I understood most of that but I think my brain dumbed a bit down for me but I’m still lost on the fertility part lol I get it A bit , don’t mean to be a real forest gump here but there is no way of knowing if a ram and acara would breed naturally
 

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