Can rasbora espei and peacock gudgeons live in a PH of 8.0-8.2?

Byron

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Several points to be made here, given the subsequent many posts with suggestions good or bad.

Taking the las post first, conditioner will not have any impact on GH, KH or pH. You may already know this, but as you mention conditioner, keep this in mind. The pH is 8.2 and that is where it will remain.

Which brings me to the use of peat, leaves, wood, and other organics. With the KH this hi8gh (13 dKH) you will never be able to put sufficient organic items in the tank to bring the pH down much if at all. I already made the point that the KH buffers the pH to prevent fluctuation. The use of chemicals will lower the pH when they are used because of their chemistry properties, but within 24 (or less) hours the strength of the KH will bring the pH back to where it was initially. This is why these substances do not work, even notwithstanding the harmful effect they can have on fish. Add organic matter, no problem, but it is not going to alter the pH permanently.

Vinegar cannot be used, unless the fish were able to live in such water, which of course they cannot. The vinegar like any acid will lower the pH instantly, but it won't remain there without continually adding more acid at each water change.

And keep in mind that every water change performed with the tap water will further strengthen the KH/pH. If you do dilute the existing KH (and lower the pH though by how much it is impossible to say unt5il you actually do it in that biological system) in the initial tank water, the water used at every water change will have to be the same parameters or the tank water will not be stable. With a relatively small tank, going this route is less onerous than it would be for a 90g or whatever, but it still means having RO (or rainwater, someone mentioned, this is good if otherwise safe and you have enough ongoing) on hand for water changes. And working out how much RO has to be mixed with the tap (it is proportional) to achieve "x" KH and pH.

You may find that unless you use exclusive RO water, and no tap water at all, you will not be able3 to get the pH as low as you want it. There is, to my knowledge, no formula for this as it depends upon the chemistry of the source water and the tank water, and the biology of the aquarium.
 
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Rocky998

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Several points to be made here, given the subsequent many posts with suggestions good or bad.

Taking the las post first, conditioner will not have any impact on GH, KH or pH. You may already know this, but as you mention conditioner, keep this in mind. The pH is 8.2 and that is where it will remain.

Which brings me to the use of peat, leaves, wood, and other organics. With the KH this hi8gh (13 dKH) you will never be able to put sufficient organic items in the tank to bring the pH down much if at all. I already made the point that the KH buffers the pH to prevent fluctuation. The use of chemicals will lower the pH when they are used because of their chemistry properties, but within 24 (or less) hours the strength of the KH will bring the pH back to where it was initially. This is why these substances do not work, even notwithstanding the harmful effect they can have on fish. Add organic matter, no problem, but it is not going to alter the pH permanently.

Vinegar cannot be used, unless the fish were able to live in such water, which of course they cannot. The vinegar like any acid will lower the pH instantly, but it won't remain there without continually adding more acid at each water change.

And keep in mind that every water change performed with the tap water will further strengthen the KH/pH. If you do dilute the existing KH (and lower the pH though by how much it is impossible to say unt5il you actually do it in that biological system) in the initial tank water, the water used at every water change will have to be the same parameters or the tank water will not be stable. With a relatively small tank, going this route is less onerous than it would be for a 90g or whatever, but it still means having RO (or rainwater, someone mentioned, this is good if otherwise safe and you have enough ongoing) on hand for water changes. And working out how much RO has to be mixed with the tap (it is proportional) to achieve "x" KH and pH.

You may find that unless you use exclusive RO water, and no tap water at all, you will not be able3 to get the pH as low as you want it. There is, to my knowledge, no formula for this as it depends upon the chemistry of the source water and the tank water, and the biology of the aquarium.
I have great news! My tank is regeristing at a KH of 2 and my GH is at 1... So I think I can get it down but it'll take something...
 

Byron

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I have great news! My tank is regeristing at a KH of 2 and my GH is at 1... So I think I can get it down but it'll take something...

Tell us how you achieved this.
 
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Rocky998

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Tell us how you achieved this.
I have no fricking clue... But I tested that hose water tap and it registers at a KH of 14 and GH of 3... This is sooo fascinating but also I'm standing here like: "HOW THE HECK IS IT LIKE THIS!?"
 
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I have no fricking clue... But I tested that hose water tap and it registers at a KH of 14 and GH of 3... This is sooo fascinating but also I'm standing here like: "HOW THE HECK IS IT LIKE THIS!?"
So, I felt like I may have done somehing wrong with the KH test... The tank is now registering at a KH of 11-12... So I may have done something really wong or I used the wrong test kit
 

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This isn't making sense. Your numbers also vary from post to post.
 

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I have no fricking clue... But I tested that hose water tap and it registers at a KH of 14 and GH of 3... This is sooo fascinating but also I'm standing here like: "HOW THE HECK IS IT LIKE THIS!?"
Your KH and GH readings are consistent with a with softened water. Do you have water softener installed in your home? Normally water softeners are located in the garage but in rental units you would have to ask the land lord. Water softeners reduce GH (calcium and magnesium) and replaced that with sodium bicarbonate (if the softener is loaded with NaCl salt) or potassium carbonate I *if the softener is leaded with KCl). and will have a high PH. You might have gotten a low KH reading during a softener recharge or flush cycle). Natural water never has a very high KH and very low GH. Either way you need to figure this out.

high levels of sodium charoite or potassium carbonate can be Lethal to fish. Fish need a balance of sodium and potassium in the water. A lot of one or the other can cause kidney damage ot fish or kill them. Get a PH, KH, GH readings from your water utility or your local fish store. Typically utility water has a higher GH than KH. If your utility or fish store have a lower KH and higher GH then a water softener is installed some were nearby.

If your tap is softened water then you should check any water faucets outside. Outside water faucets are typically not connected to water softeners.. So check the KH, GH, PH, of any outside water faucets. Check it several times to verify i it is stable. If an outside water faucet has a KH that is lower than the GH and a PH that is lower. you can use that water. If you can locate the water softener you might find a tap right next to it that may be unproced utility water.
 
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Rocky998

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Your KH and GH readings are consistent with a with softened water. Do you have water softener installed in your home? Normally water softeners are located in the garage but in rental units you would have to ask the land lord. Water softeners reduce GH (calcium and magnesium) and replaced that with sodium bicarbonate (if the softener is loaded with NaCl salt) or potassium carbonate I *if the softener is leaded with KCl). and will have a high PH. You might have gotten a low KH reading during a softener recharge or flush cycle). Natural water never has a very high KH and very low GH. Either way you need to figure this out.

high levels of sodium charoite or potassium carbonate can be Lethal to fish. Fish need a balance of sodium and potassium in the water. A lot of one or the other can cause kidney damage ot fish or kill them. Get a PH, KH, GH readings from your water utility or your local fish store. Typically utility water has a higher GH than KH. If your utility or fish store have a lower KH and higher GH then a water softener is installed some were nearby.

If your tap is softened water then you should check any water faucets outside. Outside water faucets are typically not connected to water softeners.. So check the KH, GH, PH, of any outside water faucets. Check it several times to verify i it is stable. If an outside water faucet has a KH that is lower than the GH and a PH that is lower. you can use that water. If you can locate the water softener you might find a tap right next to it that may be unproced utility water.
I think we run off of city water... They may have a large scale filtration system that has a softner but I dont know exactly.
 
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Rocky998

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This is what I found on our utility site. Hopefully this helps...
The treatment process begins with aeration, which causes the metals to begin oxidizing (rusting) naturally. Aeration also removes most of the hydrogen sulfide in the water. After some detention time, an oxidizing chemical is added to ensure that oxidation is complete before filtering. Any metals not fully oxidized will simply pass through the filters. The filters also remove any remaining hydrogen sulfide.

Water is then softened to remove calcium and magnesium. The softeners remove all hardness, so it is necessary to bypass a fraction of the water in order to reach the desired hardness level. Softening is by far the most expensive aspect of this treatment system. The salt used to regenerate the softeners accounts for a third of the Water Treatment Plant's operational costs, including electricity. Extremely soft water also has a corrosive effect in the distribution system, resulting in increased wear and maintenance of pumps, valves, and metallic pipe/fittings. Our finished water hardness level is the result of research, testing and consultation with surrounding systems utilizing similar source water and treatment techniques.

Chlorine and ammonia are then added for disinfection and prevention of microbial growth in the distribution system. Orthophosphate, a corrosion inhibitor, is also added to further prevent the finished water from reacting with metallic parts (i.e. iron, lead, copper) for the City's distribution and home plumbing systems. Waters from the Cove City storage tank and the Water Treatment Plant storage tank are then blended before entering the distribution system, at which point the water is ready for consumption.
 

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There are aspects of that process that worry me for humans as well as fish. I've no idea how much of all these chemicals and salt remain, but I would not drink that water.
 
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Rocky998

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There are aspects of that process that worry me for humans as well as fish. I've no idea how much of all these chemicals and salt remain, but I would not drink that water.
Ive been deinking it and it hasn't killed me yet lol
 
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Rocky998

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There are aspects of that process that worry me for humans as well as fish. I've no idea how much of all these chemicals and salt remain, but I would not drink that water.
Which parts worry you?
 

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This is what I found on our utility site. Hopefully this helps...
The treatment process begins with aeration, which causes the metals to begin oxidizing (rusting) naturally. Aeration also removes most of the hydrogen sulfide in the water. After some detention time, an oxidizing chemical is added to ensure that oxidation is complete before filtering. Any metals not fully oxidized will simply pass through the filters. The filters also remove any remaining hydrogen sulfide.

Water is then softened to remove calcium and magnesium. The softeners remove all hardness, so it is necessary to bypass a fraction of the water in order to reach the desired hardness level. Softening is by far the most expensive aspect of this treatment system. The salt used to regenerate the softeners accounts for a third of the Water Treatment Plant's operational costs, including electricity. Extremely soft water also has a corrosive effect in the distribution system, resulting in increased wear and maintenance of pumps, valves, and metallic pipe/fittings. Our finished water hardness level is the result of research, testing and consultation with surrounding systems utilizing similar source water and treatment techniques.

Chlorine and ammonia are then added for disinfection and prevention of microbial growth in the distribution system. Orthophosphate, a corrosion inhibitor, is also added to further prevent the finished water from reacting with metallic parts (i.e. iron, lead, copper) for the City's distribution and home plumbing systems. Waters from the Cove City storage tank and the Water Treatment Plant storage tank are then blended before entering the distribution system, at which point the water is ready for consumption.
So it sounds like the utility is softening the water. This is annoying as there is basically no (easy) way getting around the fact that your water is softened. You should ask your local fish store how they deal with this.

Honestly, I'm not sure which fish would survive well in softened water. A low GH and a high KH is not something you would find in nature. I'm not sure how fish would deal with it.

Ignoring the softened water problem for now, have you considered other species of fish besides Rasbora espei? There are plenty of fish that are comfortable in hard water. I think you said this is a 20 gallon high? Shelldwellers would be the most interesting choice in my opinion, though you would have to re-scape your aquarium and you wouldn't be able to keep anything else. You could replace the rasboras with an appropriate Pseudomugil species or maybe Glowlight danios. Centromochlus perugiae would be another really cool species too. There are some really interesting livebearers too, like Montezuma swordtails.
 

Byron

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I don't like the "oxidizing chemical" that is not named. And most assuredly the salt. I understand these may or may not be relatively harmless but that depends upon the quantity.

Steven has posted, and I concur. Except, the problem now is that hard water fish need hard water, and as this softened water is all you have in the pipes...??
 

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