Caffeine + Fish = Dead?

[dgwebster]

I can confirm that it kills the fish.

We used to have a tank at work, until the fish were killed twice "death by vinegar" and again a third time, "death by instant coffee granules"

The sad part is the third lot of fish were a donation from a long time friend of mines that was moving hundreds of miles and did not want to take the fish tank with her - so she donated them to the work place on her last day unknown what had happened to the previous two groups. One of the fish was 9 years old.

The some cruel *&^*$**&*$^ killed them all in a mindless act of voilence. Upon saying that, w really do have some right degenerates (no, not the Elllen kind!!) working in their at times, we should come to expect no less.

 

[andyt_uk]

If there was a real scientific need to determine the effect of caffiene on goldfish, then fine.

like a new natural medication?

its worth knowing then how it might effect the fish

But we all know it would probably have the same or similar effect on fish as it does on any other living creature. Increased metabolic rate, reduced sense of fatigue. I can just see the whirlpool in the goldfish bowl from the four goldies swiming round and round and round!!!

do we

just like we all know the sun orbts the earth

 

[pica_nuttalli]

we both know that no usable scientific discovery regarding the effects of caffiene on fish is going to be accomplished by an eighth-grader sticking four goldfish in two bowls with some ground-up NoDoz.

not only are the fish being kept in conditions well-known to result in premature death, but there is also no possible way due to the small volume to make accurate observations regarding behavioral change in response to exposure. thus the premise of the experiment is essentially "will this cause pain/suffering?"--which is distasteful as an experimental objective.

if someone wants to perform actual research on the effects (beyond potential for harm) of caffeine exposure, then that's fine with me. especially if they believe that there is potential use of the chemical as, say, an anti-fungal treatment. but that someone would need to perform this experiment in appropriate conditions with controlled exposures; there would also need to be a statistically relevant sample size.

4 goldfish in 2 bowls? i don't think so.

 

[andyt_uk]

would be interesting to know which web site this idea came from

my point was more that scientific investigation can be useful - and what one (or more) person(s) believe the obvious result will be is not oten true...

that said, it goes without saying keeping goldfish in small bowls and dumping coffee grounds in there is not ideal to say the least

what age is 8th grade? 11 or 12??

probably too young to carry out any accurate scientific works of discovery..........
why not recommend they try a mini volcano

or does drinking cola after eating explosive candy really cause your stomach to explode?

or as on last nights the indestructibles - which gives more wind, meat or veg???

 

[pica_nuttalli]

and have a team of "experts" agree on which smells funkier (although flatulence is largely dependent on the particular bacterial colonies cultivated in one's intestine; thus veg-heads have terrible meat farts and meat-atarians respond quite poorly to beans )

 

[dgwebster]

I apologise fo the massively bad political correctness and any offense, but one someone suggested at work today:

Do dwarves have smaller handwriting?

 

[andyt_uk]

thats the sort of science 8th graders however the heck old they are shoud be carrying out

 

[Spinal]

Sorry I offended ANY culture. I didn't mean to imply that the American's are cruel to fish. I did most of my pre-high school years in the US.

I am NOT English, so saying God Bless the UK/Queen/King/etc; don't really affect me I am in fact Italian

What I meant by my statement was that in the UK (where I am now, and which is the country that I find has the strictest animal rights laws... and I have lived in quite a few countries). I have come several times in contact with RSPCA members here, (and for much less).

In the labs in the college I went too, we had the RSPCA come and stop the computer scientists from using eel cells to do research on bio-computing... and that was the day after the lab announced it was intending to start... quite impressive

What I meant was, why hasn't the teacher in this case stopped the student? Why hasn't another student asked her to stop? Or complain to the teacher/headmaster? and if nothing else worked; why didn't another student contact the local animal rights group?

I stand by my conviction, I feel that this situation is outrageous and disgraceful to say the least; but I'm not accusing any culture; I am accusing those involved in this specific case.

Michele

 

[n3ont3tra]

Well, I'm in eigth grade too, and at my school of about 1000 students, I doubt there are even 5 people in the entire building that care about fish or know as much as I do about fish. That's just not how people are. I'm not exactly the most popular person in the school either. If I go complaining to someone that she's being cruel to her fish, I will probably be thought of as a complete nerd and not spoken to by anyone, and also, she will never talk to me again either as I'd have ruined her science project. Also, I doubt any teacher in the school would even recognize that as mistreating a fish. Nobody would take me seriously. They'd just be like "It's only a fish." And my mom said I should just let her do her own project.

 

[dwarfgourami]

One persons cruelty is another persons interest. What some people find cruel, another person would not be bothered by. ie. I could not eat cat or dog, certainly one that was freshly killed, but in some country's it's a delicacy.

Totally different situation. I do not know of any country where RSPCA and their likes are concerned about the killing of animals per se; they do not spend their time trying to stop slaughter-houses from carrying out their work. But if animals destined for slaughter are exposed to prolonged suffering before this- being kept in awful conditions, or exposed to painful experiments, then they do take a more active approach. There are rules (possibly not strict enough) about how scientists carrying out animal experiments should treat their research animals.

In the present case, the responsibility seems to rest with the teacher. If this project is in any way sanctioned by the school, then it is the teacher's job to evaluate its scientific content and ethical implications- and the teacher should be following ethical guidelines laid down by the school.

 

[andyt_uk]

whats the school email address?
lets all mail the head complaining

 

[Spinal]

anddyt_uk! I love your idea! I did some research, and there are 110 Schools in Penn that do 8th grade level... If my Geography serves me right, the major city in the south east is Pittsburg... but I still would need more information... grumble!

neontetra; all we would need is the school name; I'm sure that we can get sufficient info to contact them online (and obviously, would not mention ANY names)

Michele

 

[MHunt]

One persons cruelty is another persons interest. What some people find cruel, another person would not be bothered by. ie. I could not eat cat or dog, certainly one that was freshly killed, but in some country's it's a delicacy.

Totally different situation. I do not know of any country where RSPCA and their likes are concerned about the killing of animals per se; they do not spend their time trying to stop slaughter-houses from carrying out their work. But if animals destined for slaughter are exposed to prolonged suffering before this- being kept in awful conditions, or exposed to painful experiments, then they do take a more active approach. There are rules (possibly not strict enough) about how scientists carrying out animal experiments should treat their research animals.

In the present case, the responsibility seems to rest with the teacher. If this project is in any way sanctioned by the school, then it is the teacher's job to evaluate its scientific content and ethical implications- and the teacher should be following ethical guidelines laid down by the school.

Ok, i might have used an incorrect analogy but my point is trying to be that what is cruel to some people can be considered interest to others. like dyed fish, not illegal but unethical to most educated fish keepers. Keeping goldfish in bowls, again not illegal but is certainly detrimental to the health of the fish. I certainly would not encourage the random dosing of a goldfish bowl with coffee to see what happens, but a scientific experiment under controlled conditions would be acceptable.



My guess about the effects is based on the effect caffeine has on most other living creatures. Fair enough mammals are very different to fish, but the chemical may have a very similar effect. It should also be noted that caffeine is a diuretic, and could affect the fishes osmoregulation or similar. Now that would probably result in the death of the fish, either directly or through secondary problems.

 

[n3ont3tra]

I don't know... I mean, for all I know you could be murderers and all you need is the shcool name. I really don't want my friend mad at me. Maybe I'll ask her how she's putting caffeine in with the fish (ie coke, coffee, etc) and see what she says. Her project is due on Friday... that's why I really don't want to mess it up, because if she can't do her project, she'll fail. I's worth 100 points. My mom said it's okay. She's a chemist and she says sometimes she has to inject animals with stuff so we know it's safe for humans, but they always know what'll kill them, and don't give them that much. But my friend doesn't know how much will kill them.

 

[MHunt]

Perhaps your mum could help or advise her in the best way to conduct the experiment. I know she couldn't do that much so it would be considered cheating, but enough that some accurate results came out of the experiment without too much suffering of the fish.