Blue Ram Not Doing So Good.

you add stabiliser to the mixture

You add this psycically without testing do you, you add stabiliser if KH is low. To know whether KH is low, you need to test for it.
The OP admitted not having added any. So to test whether he needs to add stabiliser, surely you test KH.

An example (I know the table is not hugely accurate)
using the table I have
KH 6.0 dch
my pH is 6.8 therefore the CO2 level according to the chart is 28mg/l.
If I added CO2 to that, I would poison my fish with CO2.
 
If the pH drops below 5 (I think) it can bring KH down further, I have read this somewhere ( I cannot find it at the moment due to crutches I cannot reach my Chemistry books).

The point is Do you now understand why testing KH is so important!!!!
 
A low KH makes pH more unstable. If you read my first post I did say there was too much CO2 which does poison fish. I suggested aerating the tank to counteract this.
If I added CO2 to my tank with a KH of 6.0, my pH would crash, there is not enough KH to buffer the pH. That is where KH comes into this. Also the lower my pH goes consequently the KH does lower. If you have hard water you are lucky in this respect, damn lucky. I have to check the KH regularly before waterchanges and add Bicarb to the water going into the tank.
The advice Truckasaurus gave was to raise the pH with Bicarb, this would have raised the pH quickly which would have reshocked the fish. I believe this would have caused more suffering for the fish.

Lets step back a little.

You said that Co2 is lowering the Ph. Correct but you then said that the KH could've been lowered considerably. Why would it have. when does CO2 injection mean the KH could've been lowered considerably?

Truckasaurus never advised to raise Ph with bicarb!!! He advised to raise KH with bicarb!!! That would've raised the bicarb quickly yes but I don't see him suggesting to throw aload in in one go!!! Personally I think that it is a no brainer as you are then interfering with the parameters for no reason if we are going by CO2 lowering KH and fearing a Ph crash!!! These myths need to stop.

6 is not a low KH. Many many users of CO2 have much much lower than this with no intent of altering their parameters. Do they have problems? NO of course they don't

You've got this all wrong!!!

If you read my post you will see that I am saying I doubt at all wether CO2 is poisoning the fish with a yeast setup!!! It could be but not highly likely. It is very very hard to get the amount of CO2 from yeast setups that we are getting with pressurised!! I also suggested that it could well be O depletion if the plants are failing and that surface turbulence (whilst it does drive CO2 off) will bring more O in or at least replace the O that is being used.

CO2 does not directly lower KH. It does lower Ph. If you added CO2 to your tank of 6KH and have Ph crashes then there is something else at play here!!!

KH is affected only by the addition and removal of carbonate. That is why injecting CO2 does not decrease KH. Biogenic decalcification does reduce KH.

Ph and KH can and often do move together but not in this case.

If you don't believe me then check out some of the tanks by Dave Spencer who I believe has 0dKH. Look at his fish and plants.

Rather than go into this completely take a look at this thread. I could've chosen from many by several different low KH users of CO2 but this one is short. the OP in this thread is raising his/her water with buffers in the belief that their water is too low KH for CO2!!! Read the replies. this really is one of the myths that I hate the most alongside the 'anaerobic substrate with sand' theories. Many of them spread by people who have only a little understanding of the actual facts and purely spread rumours they have always been told!!!:
http://www.ukaps.org/forum/viewtopic.php?f=51&t=2748

There are many other myths that can be gotten rid of:
Excess nutrients cause algae - Sorry they don't
Sand compacts andcauses anaerobic areas in the substrate - Only in a non planted tank but noone makes this seperation. We want anaerobic in a planted tank
4WPG is needed to grow highlight plants - No it isn't unless you are using T12s from the seventies

There are many many more but this Ph/KH/CO2 one is spread around as if it is gospel. It is wrong and should be trodden into the carpet for good!!!!

AC
 
So why spend hours arguing with me about it. From experience I know that KH is important and you told the OP to keep the CO2 running. If he / she has levels in the tank similar to mine, leaving the CO2 running when you don't know the KH appears to me to be stupid. We can all regurgitate information on pH from textbooks, but knowing how pH and KH affect your tank is the most important, this comes with experience. If you don't have ultra soft water and don't have to deal on a day to day basis with preventing pH and KH crashes, you will not understand how important checking KH is before adding CO2. The lower the pH in my tank the faster the KH drops, I have found this on numerous occasions, this is where watching experience is invaluable.
The OP gave no KH reading, so when suspecting CO2 poisoning or pH shock or KH shock (yes it does happen) if you don't know the KH, you should stop CO2 and aerate the tank as much as possible. If you need to increase pH or KH you do so slowly with water changes so that you don't shock or reshock fish. I have had to do this more times than I care to remember in my old 23G as the ph and KH were never stable, yet I managed to keep rams, down to sheer hard work and testing my water constantly.

EDIT
The information I gave in my first post would have sufficed, too much CO2 so aerate the tank.
I am not going to posting on this forum any more, I am sick to death of the argumentative nature. I will keep in touch with wilder but cannot be bothered with any one else, I will go where my help is appreciated, and where I am a mod. I prefer to have discussion, which I am perfectly happy to do, however I am fed up with knife attacks, and am fed up with seeing this all over the forum at so many posters that have supplied blooming good information. It may be the morphine talking but I really don't care anymore.
 
You can poison fish with C02 you have to increase aeration fast.

CO2 Poisoning

CO2 levels in excess of 25-30 ppm are dangerous for fish. Common signs for CO2 poisoning are an increasing and more rapid breathing, gasping for air, and a staggering swimming behavior – all leading to suffocation of the fish.

CO2 poisoning can be caused by a malfunction of the CO2 reactor, or the inability of plants to absorb CO2 if the lighting is insufficient.

A quick and long lasting solution is to heavily aerate the tank through surface agitation and air-stones. This will cause the CO2 to dissipate from the water.
 
I am very confused with your tank. I wonder why you have such troubles whereas the people who are carefree with 0KH have great success and no problems? Why when yours has more buffer in it at 6 do you have problems and they don't?

Strikes me that those who play with fire get burnt whereas those who just go ahead without altering their parameters are rewarded with a stable system that doesn't crash. No idea. A mystery. Maybe you should ask them as it would save you lots of hassle and money!!!

I have no idea what my KH is. indeed the only figures I know are my tap water is Ph 7.6. I have no other tests nor need them. I inject CO2, I then throw in nitrate, phosphate and potassium plus loads of trace metals. I sit back and enjoy watching my corys and Otos playing alongside the shrimp.

AC
 
Wilder

We're not saying that you can't poison fish with CO2. I have done it myself when a needle valve failed a couple of years back but with DIY yeast setup it is very very hard to get to these levels.

What we are arguing about is a poster that say CO2 decreses KH which it doesn't

TigerIssy - I have just been informed by someone in my area that the KH here is 4 so I rest my case. Your tank has problems within it that are causing your crashes!!!

AC
 
Might make a good debate over in the science section of the forum.
I know nothing about C02, kh, gh. Out of my depth.
So let the poster have her thread back now.
 
you add stabiliser to the mixture

You add this psycically without testing do you, you add stabiliser if KH is low. To know whether KH is low, you need to test for it.
The OP admitted not having added any. So to test whether he needs to add stabiliser, surely you test KH.

An example (I know the table is not hugely accurate)
using the table I have
KH 6.0 dch
my pH is 6.8 therefore the CO2 level according to the chart is 28mg/l.
If I added CO2 to that, I would poison my fish with CO2.

I suggest you have a read of this article as to why kH/ Ph tables are an innacurate way of measuring CO2, even phosphate and nitrate can cause an innacurate reading! Along with other acidic substances such as humic acid and nitric acid - these both lower the pH, without CO2 injection, so you dont inject CO2, but you still have 28ppm! hmmm something not quite right there. ;)
http://www.fishforums.net/index.php?showtopic=268972

Sand compacts andcauses anaerobic areas in the substrate - Only in a non planted tank but noone makes this seperation. We want anaerobic in a planted tank

We want this in any tank, anereobic bacteria can break down NO3 and convert into Nitrogen which is great!
 
kH depicts how much the pH will drop by, for example if we have a ph7, with kh 8 the pH may only drop to 6.5 (kH remains the same)
if we have another tank with a ph of 7, but this time the kH is 5, the ph may drop to 6. (kH again remains the same)

The reason the pH drops further with a lower kH is because there is less buffering capacity. HCO3- and H2CO3- lie in equilibrium with each other and this is why kH remains the same with CO2 injection, and only the pH changes. H2CO3- forms in lower pH's (hence why these carbonic acids are produced with CO2 injection) and HCO3- is formed in higher pH's which some plants such as vallisneria sp surviev better as they can use the bicarbonates as a source of carbon.

It is all about H+ atoms shifting - very much in a similar way to ammonia/ ammonium equilibrium.

HTH, Aaron
 

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