Black "Scab" on male guppy tail fin?

[Vengified]

As title says, my male guppy has developed a black spot, and I'm not sure how or why, and possibly a second one. I'll enter all pertinent info and include pictures below:

Tank size: 10g
pH: 8.0 (very hard city water)
ammonia: 0
nitrite: 0
nitrate: 0.12ppm
kH: unknown (but I know it's full of stuff)
gH: unknown
tank temp: 78°F

• Fish Symptoms (include full description including lesion, color, location, fish behavior):

Roney (as son has named him), is still acting completely normal, eating, swimming, chasing bubbles, and displaying or mating with the one other male guppy. The only strange thing is the black spot that appeared, and has grown, and a second one seems to be growing. The first looks like a scab, not all the way black, and it's
On his tail fin.

• Volume and Frequency of water changes:

Every four days, two gallons or 20%

• Chemical Additives or Media in your tank:

Undergravel filter, 15# gravel, use API Stress Zyme water conditioner. Feed Tetramin tropical flakes, occasional freeze dried bloodworms.

• Tank inhabitants:

Two male cobra guppies, 4 red cherry shrimp, two ghost shrimp, one orange bee shrimp.

• Recent additions to your tank (living or decoration):

(The spot has been slowly growing since shortly after he was purchased, I assumed it was coloration, but doesn't appear so now.

Today= March 28:
*March 16, added 3 RCS.
*March 07, added 4 Marimo Moss balls, two Java Fern, and Temple Compacta plants.
*March 02, added two ghost shrimp and orange bee shrimp.

• Exposure to chemicals:

None other than API Stress Zyme for water conditioner, and fish foods.

Digital photo (include if possible): *NOTE: the first picture was when we had them in a small 3g aquarium, before we got a bigger home, thanks to all the helpful people here at TFF again for helping me grow as a fishmeeper!

-----The day we got him home -----


----- Both sides, taken yesterday -----

 

[Colin_T]

weird and interesting

Is the dark area raised or smooth? On one side it appears raised and lumpy but that could be the creases in the tail.

It looks like blood pooling in the tail but there is no reason for that to happen unless the fish has been damaged. And then the blood leaks out of the tail. Also if it was a blood clot it should bulge out a bit. Bruises normally go after a couple of weeks and don't continue to get bigger over time.

How long has it had the big patch for and how long ago did the small patch start?

It might be natural colouration but guppies are normally coloured up when you buy them. That doesn't mean it's not a weird freakish mutation but it's unlikely to be the cause.

Any chance of a photo from behind the fish looking along the fish so we can see both sides of the tail?

 

[Vengified]

Hey again @Colin_T thanks for stopping by and at least confirming I'm not a total dunce, and missed something super simple, lol. I browsed a few places, and couldn' find the exact issue I'm seeing.

As far as the fish, it does look like one side, is kind of lumpy, like a scab, but the other side, seems totally smooth, and flows evenly with his tail.

He has not suffered any injury that I am aware of, and I did have the powerhead from the UGF pointed in a way that he and his buddy could "ride" the current, but sometimes it would blast them clear across the tank, so that only lasted the first couple days, then I started pointing it at a wall. I currently have about 75% of a DIY spray bar done, and intend to spread the current out across the back wall, as they seem to like it, but I don' want it too strong.

I first noticed the large patch, the first couple days this month, so about 4 weeks ago. The large patch seemed to start small, like the small patch is now, and has gradually grown, and then in the past few days, developed the texture on one side. The small patch showed up in the last week. All of his fins, including that tail fin, seem to be intact, I don't see any tears, nips, or rot on the edges, and as stated, he is eating, swimming, dancefighting, etc, as normal. The other guppy shows no similar symptom, and all the shrimp seem A OK as well.

I have the light off for the night now, and I don't like to startle them by flicking it on and off. If I recall correctly, they don't like it, as they don't have eyelids, and their pupils don't dilate as quickly as ours. I could be wrong? But either way, less stress = happy fish right?

So, when I get up in the morning, I'll see if I can get a picture from the rear, showing whether it has depth or not. I'm not quite sure how I can get it though, as he is always swimming around? Unless I'm supposed to try and net him and put him in a small glass saucer? I'll do my best, and if you see this before I post a pic, any suggestions on getting that shot, would be helpful.

Thanks again!

 

[Colin_T]

Your explanation of his tail is fine and what I thought, smooth on one side and rough on the other side. I don't need another photo now to confirm that.

You are correct about fish not having eye lids so if they are asleep, leave them be. No one likes to be woken up with bright light shining in their eyes

The only other thing I can think of is a tumor or skin cancer. Be very unusual if it is skin cancer but could be the equivalent of a mole gone wrong.

At this stage I would simply monitor and see how they go. I doubt it's contagious and doesn't look like any contagious disease or parasite so it's either colouration, blood clot, or abnormal cell growth

 

[Vengified]

Thanks again @Colin_T I did get some more pictures though, but first a couple comments/questions:

In a couple of the pictures, Sophie (gold one) has a SUPER long poo! It was nearly twice as long as him. It wasn't there very long, maybe 5 minutes, right after feeding time. Anyways, I am assuming/guessing/hoping that it' just a poo, and not a parasite? He seems fine, acting normal, was eating just before that, and is fine hours later still.

Next, I got a few more fish, as I am showing nitrate now (.25 or less, usually half between 0-.25). I got 3 more male guppies, an odd number of boys, to hopefully mellow some of the mating/fighting dances. I also got an Otocinclus, which from reading, is super docile, and doesn't harm other fishes. However, I have read that they don't like being alone, does alone constitute as in no other friendly fish, or alone as in alone as a species? He seems to play and swim with the guppies, is eating like crazy, good color, good belly shape, but I don't wanna subject him to a life of sorrow either. With that being said, I know I am just slightly over sticking limit, but from other information I have gathered, the Oto and shrimp, don't contribute very much to the bio load, plus they clean the tank, and since I have recurring diatoms, I thought it would be a good addition.

Lastly, I took a video, of the guppies, doing what I think is playing? I have moved the powerhead outlet multiple times, and no matter where I point it, they always seek out the strong current. In its current location, it seems to be the best place, least possibility of them harming themselves by slamming a wall, and it doesn' create a raging whirlpool effect. With its current location, it' actually leaves over half the tank, pretty still, to where the guppies barely have to fan their tails. If I'm wrong, let me know, but as I said, they SEEK OUT the current, and I put it in the safest place I could find, literally spent 7 hours, moving it around, trying to watch current and their demeanor with current. I have also purchased some tubing, connectors, and mounting suction cups, as I have toyed with the idea of a DIY spray bar, just in case it' believed that the current is too much.

If anyone has any thoughts, let me know? I am open to any friendly suggestions, and am appreciative of all advice! Thanks!

 

[Colin_T]

If fish eat a lot, they poop a lot. That is just a guppy that needed to go to the loo really badly
When they eat, the food goes into their stomach and pushes the semi digested food along the intestine. The more they eat the more gets pushed through, and the more that comes out the other end

Otocinclus catfish should be kept with their own kind for company. They don't make much mess so you could probably have a 2 or 3 more. Just monitor the water quality and do regular water changes and gravel cleans.

However, if a fish is sick or has a mystery illness (as in your guppy), it is usually recommended not to add new fish until you know what is going on. If the guppy tail is some sort of disease (I don't think it is), then you could be putting the new fish at risk of catching it. Unlikely in this case but it can happen so should be noted for future reference. Also the introduction of new fishes can bring in diseases and make the potentially stressed fish more prone to developing an illness. Again it is unlikely in this case but you need to be aware that adding any new fish to an established tank can bring in diseases unless you quarantine the new fish first.

A quarantine tank can be any water holding container that has a filter, heater and airstone to keep the water clean. New fish are kept there for at least 2 weeks and monitored for signs of disease. If they show no signs of disease after 2-4 weeks (4 weeks for gouramis, 2 weeks for other fish), then they are added to the main display tank. A 20-30litre plastic storage container with lid can be used as a quarantine tank and you can bleach it and dry it out afterwards when not in use. If you have 2 filters in the main tank, say a power filter and a corner sponge filter run off an air pump, you can move the sponge filter into the quarantine tank when you get new fish and move it back into the main tank after.
A quarantine tank is not essential but it can save you from having to treat the main tank for unwanted diseases.

The guppies swimming into the current are then being pushed across the tank and they swim down because the current they are swimming into is too powerful for them. Most fish naturally swim upstream into currents so this is perfectly normal. And as long as there are some quiet pockets in the tank where the fish can rest without being blown around by the filter, they will be fine

 

[Vengified]

Long Post, if its TL;DR for anyone, just hit last paragraph and pictures. Thanks.

Thanks @Colin_T for the help as usual! A lot has happened in the past week! Real life, not related to aquariums, as well as an aquarium catastrophe yesterday! =(

On a POSITIVE note: I'm gonna be a dad again! Wife just confirmed pregnancy on Saturday! Kinda scared, but who is EVER ready for a child, or more children?

On to a negative and aquarium stuff: The Epic Catastrophe! Sunday morning, my son turns on the aquarium light. I hear a pop, thought it was just the lid. Then, about 5 minutes later, get up to help him portion food to feed them, and there is a crack running half way down the small end of the tank, and its leaking! Apparently he leaned on top of the tank, to reach over the hood to the switch...

I ran out, lucky for us, Petco is currently doing the $1/gallon sale! So, instead of replacing the 10, I grabbed a 20gal. I know long is better, but my stand is built for a 20high, so that's what I got. Then got a new hood for twice the cost of the tank... Also, last Friday, I picked up a top fin HOB on sale for $10, rated 5-15gal I think. So I have the UGF as well as power filter now, which was good, as I had all 5 guppies, 3 Otos, and 7 shrimp in a 2.5gal with the HOB while I ran out to get the new tank, and set it up.

Now to the REAL meat and potatoes: Roney has progressively gotten worse unfortunately. The tail started with a small dark spot, then it grew, then it went three dimensional like a scab. Then a second dark spot appeared. It stayed this way for a couple weeks. Yesterday, I noticed what appeared to be a small pinhole, surrounded by a white color. This morning, I got up to find him somewhat lethargic, with a large split in his tail, from halfway in, through the end!

Now Roney is in a little 2.5 gallon by himself. It has a small filter, no carbon, just a sponge, not a cycled sponge however. I started dosing him with this "Tetra Safeguard" supposedly an All-In-One treatment, as I have no idea the EXACT issue this would be? At this point, it SEEMS like fin rot from my very limited experience, but it did not START like this, and did not start at the end of the fin.

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TL;DR - If anyone has any idea what this could be, please feel free to provide insight as to whether the treatment will be sufficient, or needs a supplement, and what specifically the issue is. As well as length of time to quarantine him, or any other pertinent information. My main tank is cycled, planted, driftwood, ugf&hob filtered, not overstocked, not overfed, ph 7.8, Nh3&4 @ 0, No2 @ 0, No3 @ 10-20, temp @ 78°F.
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[Colin_T]

A lot has happened in the past week! Real life, not related to aquariums, as well as an aquarium catastrophe yesterday! =(

On a POSITIVE note: I'm gonna be a dad again! Wife just confirmed pregnancy on Saturday! Kinda scared, but who is EVER ready for a child, or more children?

Baby Guppies?
no baby guppies baby human instead. Congratulations if you want another kid, sucked in if you don't
Get a 6 foot aquarium and let the kids run around in that. No water needed, just a milk bottle, and if they make too much noise put a cover on it and turn the lights out

crap, bad luck on the tank cracking, good luck on scoring a bigger tank
you could probably patch the broken tank with another sheet of glass or just replace the side. Then you could use it as a quarantine tank, or more fish

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is the patch on the fish still lumpy on one side?

Fin rot is a bacterial infection that normally occurs when conditions are not clean. It starts with red veins in the fins (usually the tail first) and the edges of the fin start to dissolve/ rot away.
It doesn't look red or inflamed so I doubt it is fin rot. It looks like someone took a bite out of his tail or a piece got ripped out. But there are no fish in your tank that would do that so we have to assume it has to do with the patch.

I have never used Tetra Safeguard and the active ingredient in it looks pretty nasty. see following link.
https://pubchem.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/compound/14774706#section=Safety-and-Hazards

However, we will have to assume Tetra did some homework on it before packaging it as a cure all.

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Since the fish is on his own you could try salt. It is my cure all, well cures some things
Add 1 heaped tablespoon or rock salt or swimming pool salt for every 20 litres of water. Keep the salt levels up for a month and then do small water changes to dilute it. However, I don't know if salt will fix the patch. I am inclined to think it is a growth/ tumor.

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To keep the water in his tank clean, I would drain it out each day and refill it with water from the main tank. Then top up the main tank with clean water. That will keep ammonia and nitrite levels down while you treat him.

 

[Vengified]

@Colin_T ROFLMAO about the kid in the aquarium! Genius idea! Although the first year they are pretty stationary, just eat, sleep, cry, pop, the 6 foot would be good to keep my 4 year old out of stuff! Except he broke the little 10 gallon already Haha. In either case, the fishes and shrimp got a good upgrade to a double size home! Probably for the best, as with the otos I was slightly overstocked.

Thanks for the salt info. I had been searching and searching for a ratio for a salt bath as opposed to a salt dip. At least I think those are the right terms? I wanted to be able to just put salt in his aquarium since he's by himself, but couldn't find an exact formula. I did do a salt dip. I REALLY don't think he liked it at ALL. He seemed to turn bright red on top of his head, and after 30 seconds or so, he started twitching, almost like a seizure. I had put a half of a teaspoon in a 20 oz cup. I'll give your equation a shot today after I siphon his tank again.

Speaking of main tank. Not sure if you could tell or not, but it has a piece of driftwood now. I wanted some of the tannins to help lower pH a bit, and also read that the tannins are relaxing. I kinda like the tea color too. However, I don't know if the newer guppies just copy the older ones sometimes, or if they get random itches, without there being a true issue? My levels are all ok. I have been doing water tests DAILY for all 4 tests in API master kit, so I know they haven't had bad water parameters, but once in a while, they do that "flashing" One of the new ones in particular, never does it, unless he follows Sophie (which he does 95% of the time, trying to mate/fight him) and then if Sophie does a flash off a leaf, the little guy does the same lol.

Poor Sophie though... And poor Roney... Sophie is getting harassed by all 3 newer guppies now, and misses Roney, and Sophie has been the alpha with all 5 in the aquarium. Roney swims up and down her tank, looking at the big tank just an inch away. I feel bad for them. I hope the salt will help. I'll get on trying that as soon as I get home from dropping the kid at school. Thanks again!

 

[Colin_T]

Make sure you use rock salt or swimming pool salt (available from a hardware), or sea salt from the petshop.

Do not use iodised table salt. You want salt that has big crystals because it won't have an anti-caking agent in it. Table salt that you put in a salt shaker has stuff in it to make it stay fine and that can cause problems.

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You can double the dose of salt if you like, but start with 1 heaped tablespoon per 20 litres, and see what happens over the next week. If no improvement then use 2 heaped tablespoons per 20 litres.
When you have salt in the tank and you do a water change, add more salt to a bucket of water before you add it to the tank.
eg: you drain 10 litres out of his tank. Fill a bucket with 10 litres of water from the main tank and add 1 level tablespoon of salt for the 10 litres. Stir it up and then add it to the tank.
This will prevent the fish going from brackish to fresh to brackish again.

If it works then keep the salt level high for a couple of weeks and then start doing 10% water changes to dilute the salt in his tank.

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Fish sometimes get itches but it should not become a common occurrence. If they do start rubbing on objects regularly, then look for white spot or a grey film to their body, especially the top half of the body.

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Otocinclus and all suckermouth catfish need a bit of driftwood to chew on. However, give it a couple of weeks before you add lots of wood to discolour the water with tannins. If there is a disease causing them to itch, you will have more trouble seeing it in tea stained water.

 

[Vengified]

Yea, I bought Jungle Aquarium Salt, and that is what I used for the dip yesterday. I am no expert fishkeeper, but before I even post asking questions, I search for literally hours, trying to find multiple sources that have matching information, because we all know, the internet is full of knowledge, not all of it is good knowledge though.

I understand the mixing routine, as to not shock their system, similar to regular water changes. The info I could find on a salt dip, said the purpose of the dip, was to intentionally shock the parasite or whatever may be on the fish, but it scared me when he turned red and started twitching. I dunno what I would have done if he passed out!

None of the fish flash like they did when I first got the two in the 3gallon tank, I see Sophie do it once or twice a day, or sometimes not for 3 days, regardless of water parameters. I can see no apparent discoloration, fungus, worms, or the like, anywhere on any of the fish. I assumed that the younger three fish were just copying Sophie, because they follow his EVERY move, all day now. To the point I think he's going mad, and would almost put him in his own tank if I could. Yesterday they appeared to be headbutting him in a corner, three younger fishes versus him. I guess its cuz Roney is gone, so they want to try and establish a new Alpha, even though Sophie has always been Alpha?

As for driftwood, I just got the one piece, don't think I plan on anymore, not for a while at least. I am thankful I got the wood though, before the tank cracked. As this new tank doesn't have algae all over it, but the white stuff growing on the wood is helping to feed the shrimp and catfish! Those otos wont touch algae wafers either, have not tried veggies yet.

Now I just need to find some floating plants and I'll be happy with the tank. I would love some floaters that have long roots that kind of hang down for the fish to swim through and hide and break line of sight. Not sure which ones to get yet, but I'll be looking to order some in the next week.

 

[Colin_T]

The best floating plant is Water Sprite (Ceratopteris thalictroides or the other species) They both look similar and grow the same.

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Salt dips don't do much but adding salt to an aquarium can reduce protozoans, bacteria and fungus in the water and on the fish. It also helps relax most fish as long as the levels are not too high. In this case I am hoping the salt will reduce bacterial and fungal infections getting into the wound.

 

[Vengified]

Well, I did the salt as you recommended @Colin_T and he seems to be tolerating it well enough. I wish he could be with his buddies, and help Sophie with the young ones, but the otos don't appreciate salt from what I gather.

Now, the little tank, isn't cycled, no gravel, just a piece of sponge in the tiny filter. Is one water change per day going to be enough? I know it depends on feeding and what comes out of my tap, but I'm curious if I need to get flex tape, and get some sort of seal on the 10 gallon immediately. I really don't have the room, but I don't wanna lose no one either.

On a positive note, it seems like Roney's tail, is looking less "ragged" where the split is. It seems to have smoothed out quite a bit, plus I see no white on the edges of the split anymore either! So hopefully this is a good sign. I'll keep the thread updated with any news, and give him a couple weeks as suggested, to heal. Thank you again for all your help!

 

[Colin_T]

one water change per day should be fine. Just make it a big one (90%) and refill his tank with water from the main tank. Just remember to make up the water with salt before adding it to his tank.
Get a bucket of tank water, add required amount of salt for that bucket of tank water, stir up and let salt dissolve, then add it to his tank.

Feed him once a day and then change the water 3-4 hours later. This will dilute any ammonia produced by the food and his waste.

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Otocinclus and virtually every freshwater fish can tolerate salt at 1 heaped tablespoon per 20 litres but will not tolerate 2 heaped tablespoons per 20 litres. However, because this is a localise issue only affecting one fish in a quarantine tank, there is no need to add salt to the main display tank.

 

[Vengified]

Well its good to know they CAN tolerate it, if an issue ever came up where every fish was affected!

I did the feeding/water/salt, exactly as you instructed - except I did that over 10 hours ago, and you just said the instructions 20 minutes ago LOL! I admit total ignorance when it comes to fish and their SPECIFIC requirements, but I am a very meticulous person when it comes to common sense I guess you would say? I do have OCPD, same thing as OCD mostly, except it's all about order, and placement. I don't have to turn doorknobs 3x or anything, but if something doesn't make sense, I can't handle it, and have to fix it. Hard to explain in text I guess lol.

Anyways, thank you, seriously @Colin_T you have been my lifeline (or my fishies lifeline rather), and whether he pulls through or not, I can now feel confident that I did whatever could be done. I am grateful to have your wealth of knowledge through the start of my fishkeeping career, and hope you stick around this forum!