Black Hairs Coming Off My Plants?

[Bobtastic]

Ah, I see. Is the India fern one of those "anti algae" plants? I was reading in the Tropica catalogue and I remember that there was a species in there that was said to inhibit algae growth.

 

[nmonks]

Possibly, though this article at Tropica is pretty skeptical of the whole idea, as far as I can tell. There's endless discussion about whether on the one hand it's about fast-growing plants work by using up nutrients (not necessarily nitrate or phosphate) faster than the algae can get them, or on the other hand the ability of some higher plants to active suppress the growth of algae by secreting special chemicals. All I know is that tanks with lots of fast-growing plants seem to have less algae than tanks with little or no plant growth.

Cheers, Neale

Ah, I see. Is the India fern one of those "anti algae" plants? I was reading in the Tropica catalogue and I remember that there was a species in there that was said to inhibit algae growth.

 

[lljdma06]

Possibly, though this article at Tropica is pretty skeptical of the whole idea, as far as I can tell. There's endless discussion about whether on the one hand it's about fast-growing plants work by using up nutrients (not necessarily nitrate or phosphate) faster than the algae can get them, or on the other hand the ability of some higher plants to active suppress the growth of algae by secreting special chemicals. All I know is that tanks with lots of fast-growing plants seem to have less algae than tanks with little or no plant growth.

Cheers, Neale

Ah, I see. Is the India fern one of those "anti algae" plants? I was reading in the Tropica catalogue and I remember that there was a species in there that was said to inhibit algae growth.

Then with just slow-growers, Neal, why don't I have algae? I am very curious to know your take on this.

Ethan040. How long has the tank been setup? That is my next question.

This is nice. I like this. Good conversation.

llj

 

[nmonks]

I don't know. But if I was to hypothesise, I'd suggest this:

In a carefully run tank where you restrict all the important nutrients to just the right amounts, the algae are controlled by lack of whatever nutrient is in least supply. Could be nitrate and phosphate, but could equally easily be something else, like iron or magnesium. But in my tanks, and those of the "average" aquarist who sticks plants in purely to make the fish happy, nutrients are usually more abundant. So the algae now aren't restricted in the same way, and can multiply their numbers given the chance. Throwing in clumps of Indian fern adds a second factor, allelopathy, to the mix, and as these grow rapidly -- and they do! -- they somehow push back the algae.

Cheers, Neale

Then with just slow-growers, Neal, why don't I have algae? I am very curious to know your take on this.

 

[lljdma06]

I don't know. But if I was to hypothesise, I'd suggest this:

In a carefully run tank where you restrict all the important nutrients to just the right amounts, the algae are controlled by lack of whatever nutrient is in least supply. Could be nitrate and phosphate, but could equally easily be something else, like iron or magnesium. But in my tanks, and those of the "average" aquarist who sticks plants in purely to make the fish happy, nutrients are usually more abundant. So the algae now aren't restricted in the same way, and can multiply their numbers given the chance. Throwing in clumps of Indian fern adds a second factor, allelopathy, to the mix, and as these grow rapidly -- and they do! -- they somehow push back the algae.

Cheers, Neale

Then with just slow-growers, Neal, why don't I have algae? I am very curious to know your take on this.

But am I being especially careful, Neale? I do a lot less maintenance than most. I only do waterchanges once a month, I dose TPN+ which has macros and micros, pretty irregularly (when I feel like it). It's pretty well stocked with fish and I am looking to add more. I don't know if I'm adding the right amount of anything, as I don't test.

IMO, part of what makes my system work well is that I don't change the water often. I have limited CO2 levels because I choose not to inject or dose liquid carbon. The low levels, however, are pretty stable, because I'm not changing the water. I read it somewhere, but I don't know the exact science of it. I bet someone can drudge it up somewhere. It is probably in the Barr report. Better low levels and stable, than higher and constantly fluctuating. Coupled by the low light levels (which drives down the demand for CO2 and nutrients further), the good circulation for gas exchange, and my plant selection, the plants in my tank get the CO2 and nutrients they need and I easily keep the algae away. The tank has been this way for some time and I have been surprised with the growth. It is not a slow as I anticipated it would be. It is not a new system. So, while it is not a carefully run system and very lazy, it may well be a carefully planned system. I knew what I wanted to do from the beginning and knew my limiting factors. So you are right in a way.

How often do you change your water, Neale? Just curious.

Do not get me wrong. I understand what you are saying and what you do obviously works well for you and has worked for me too in past systems, so I'm not going to jump on anyone's methodology. In fact, I can easily recall when this was a typical setup for here and I was weird for doing low-light, no CO2 when everybody else did ADA this and ADA that.

What you practice and my low-light system seem quite different on paper. Why do both grow plants well?

Ethan040, how long has the tank been setup?

Regarding the whole business with algae-busting plants. IMO, plants actively compete for nutrients just like any other organism. Some plants are better at this than others. Those are the "algae-busters". Who gets the role of "algae-buster" may change based on the type of system you are keeping. In my current tank, the crypts are the dominant plant, hands down, and fill the role of stemplants in the higher light systems. They easily dominate and control the growth of my aponogeton. In a 1.4WPG 20g high I had, it was the other way around. The aponogeton dominated the crypts and held their growth in check. I find that curious and wonder if the lighting levels are significant factors in both cases. In my CO2 injected 8g, the weeping moss wall and hydrocotyle were dominant and the fissidens suffered. The fissidens, however, is now doing much better in the low light tank. I think the fissidens was being out-competed. These things are interesting to note. Maybe I am way off base, but I think it's interesting.

There have been a few articles on aquatic plant competition circulation and I think they are very interesting. I observe this all the time in terrestrial plants, why wouldn't the same occur with their aquatic cousins?

I agree, Bobtastic, this is very interesting. It would be nice to hear others put their imput in. I apologize to Ethan040, however, we are doing some serious hyjacking. I hope you do not mind. If you wish, I can split this topic so we do not clutter your thread? Let me know.

llj

 

[nmonks]

Ah, now, this is a case of do as I say and not as I do!

I'm very lazy here, and can go a month or so without doing a water change, and then will change out 75% of the water! Usually change about 40-50% every 2-3 weeks though. The new water is a 50/50 mix of rainwater and hard tap water.

I do crop back the floating plants weekly, and that likely removes a lot of nitrate and phosphate. Plus, I always have quite deep sand beds in my aquaria, and these seem to work as well in freshwater tanks for nitrate reduction as they do in marine tanks. And I over-filter my tanks compared to many other aquarists, favouring turnover rates around 8 times the volume of the tank per hour.

Cheers, Neale

How often do you change your water, Neale? Just curious.

 

[lljdma06]

Ah, now, this is a case of do as I say and not as I do!

I do not get what you mean. What I do is clearly outlined in my journals and pretty consistant with the advice I give, depending on the system being discussed. I always make a qualifying statement. Not all systems are the same.

I'm very lazy here, and can go a month or so without doing a water change, and then will change out 75% of the water! Usually change about 40-50% every 2-3 weeks though. The new water is a 50/50 mix of rainwater and hard tap water.

I do crop back the floating plants weekly, and that likely removes a lot of nitrate and phosphate. Plus, I always have quite deep sand beds in my aquaria, and these seem to work as well in freshwater tanks for nitrate reduction as they do in marine tanks. And I over-filter my tanks compared to many other aquarists, favouring turnover rates around 8 times the volume of the tank per hour.

Cheers, Neale

How often do you change your water, Neale? Just curious.

What is funny Neale is that we are similar. My turnover is around 10x, sometimes I go higher than this, and I also have sand. I do not use soil, though as I dose from the water column. I am worse and just use straight tap (yes, I love giving my fish Viagra, hormones, and Valium, adds that extra kick) and change less water (about 25%-30%). So I am more lazy than you! This is typical practice for me in a low-light, non-CO2 system. When I inject CO2, things are different and I will reflect that in the advice that I give.

The only difference I'm seeing between our current systems is that you are blocking excess light with floaters (who have a much easier time getting CO2 from the atmosphere) and I have reduced my lighting to the extent that I have eliminated the need for for them in that particular system. Perhaps some different philosophies on nutrients, but that is it. I bet our PAR levels would be pretty similar. It's like teaching voice, two instructors will have different ways of explaining things, but the result is the same, good voice technique. Result is the same here, good healthy growth from the plants we choose to keep.

llj

 

[nmonks]

All I meant here is that usually when writing about fishkeeping in books and magazines I recommend a 25% weekly water changes. That's a good approach to take to ensure low levels of nitrate without exposing your fish to big water chemistry or water temperature changes. And while I try to do this, I'm being honest and admitting that I don't always manage to be so diligent. I flatter myself I can tell when the fish aren't happy though, and since I work at home (I'm sitting next to my 180 litre system as I write this) it doesn't usually take long to spot problems. When I do big (50+%) water changes, I also know how to keep water chemistry and temperature changes minimal, so there's not much chance of harming my fish.

Cheers, Neale

Ah, now, this is a case of do as I say and not as I do!

I do not get what you mean. What I do is clearly outlined in my journals and pretty consistant with the advice I give, depending on the system being discussed. I always make a qualifying statement. Not all systems are the same.

 

[waterdrop]

This is great fun, what an interesting read. This reminds me I had intended to try and find some floating plants (probably indian ferns?) and try this experiment on my little tank in my son's room. I think is was from a previous Neale discussion.. do you recall that at all Neale? Truth is, I'm in totally over my head. I have these great discussions to read here with LL and Aaron and Dave et.al. and Neale coming in sometimes. I got so interested in the gorgeous tanks in the contests that I became a member of AGA out of pure curiosity and met Amano at the Atlanta conference (which we were hoping would be followed up with a Florida one this year but no rumors so far!) Met plenty of other writers and plant people there too and bought Diana's book and read it. Then I got to talk to Diana, as she's in my home town and goes to a local society and ultimately I have to laugh at times as the whole lot of you just run rings around me with plant and tank knowledge.

I sure intend to hand in there though and keep reading and hoping to try things. It was very encouraging when some of my new knowledge from this effort paid off in healthy plants after I realized my new tank was way too sterile a place plant-wise.

Its remarkable all the different paths to plant success there are out there and all the different "looks" that can be quite satisfying. I am one of those who gets equally excited by a really good "jungle" look where healthy plants are the thing of beauty but also by a completely different tank where the entire aquascape takes the healthy plants and multiplies the art of what you're looking at.

I have experienced some algae that I felt I identified correctly as being BBA. Its behavior was consistent with the "James Tank" link comments in that it appeared on the tips of annubia (and Java Fern, not sure if I'm remembering that correctly now) that were closest to my Koralia powerhead that is down low in the tank and shoots water from the side. Also consistent was that I was doing weekly 50% water changes directly from the tap via a Python, thus causing large CO2 swings (I don't have a CO2 checker.)

~~waterdrop~~

 

[Dave Spencer]

Personally, I don`t buy in to allelopathy. Let allelopathy cure algae blooms? I wish! How does allelopathy work in a river where everything gets washed downstream? Anybody can test allelopathy out by running two identical planted tanks, using regularly replaced carbon on one tank as the only difference. Chuck a lot of light over them both with no additional carbon added to either and see what alga bloom. If it were my tanks, I would guarantee BBA, staghorn and Spirogyra in both, regardless of the carbon.

It is newer tanks that are most susceptible to algal blooms. Avoid 99% of all algal issues in this instance by controlling the light in terms of photoperiod and intensity, both of which can be increased alongside a growing, healthy biomass. Nail the CO2 levels from the word go. Keep it way above what is actually needed, only bringing it down to more acceptable levels when fauna are to be introduced. Keep ammonia levels to an absolute minimum. Raoid, healthy plant growth and Zeolite will do this.

There certainly is endless discussion about plants using nutrients before algae gets to use them, but not amongst people running dosed planted tanks, surely? I look to maintain NO3 at around 25ppm and PO3 at 4ppm by dosing salts as per the EI method. All nutrients in my tanks are in excess, but there is a 99% algae free environment. The mechanism here certainly is unknown, but it isn`t plants outcompeting algae for nutrients. Thousands of planted tanks disprove this on a daily basis.

Most of my tanks start heavily planted using the light/carbon/Zeolite method I mentioned earlier. I never see algal blooms, certainly nothing to worry about or ones that take hold. Even the so called inevitable brown diatoms stay away. That said, my most recent tank has been started very lightly planted, with some distinctly slow growing plants. Algal blooms are putting in some pretty strong appearances, which didn`t really surprise me, but I was certainly guilty of some over confidence in my ability to start a tank with such a low biomass. The only difference with this tank is the low biomass, which is the only link I can see with the blooms. Plants do suppress algae in the right circumstances, but the mechanism is unknown.

Ethan, you have a carbon deficiency and Excel or Easycarbo are an excellent place to start. Just be careful not to overdose it, as I have heard that Vallis isn`t too keen on Gluteraldehyde. During a water change, you can spot treat the exposed algae with the Excel/Easycarbo and a small brush, but not directly on the Vallis. I can induce BBA and staghorn with low CO2 levels repeatedly. They are usually my indication of when my CO2 cylinder is running out, reminding me of how slack I am at times. Trust me, the problem is in carbon. The answer is Gluteraldehyde or gaseous CO2.


Dave.

 

[Ethan040]

This is turning out to be a good thread interesting read.

lljdma06: Most of the plants inc the vallis where in my old 20gal but i moved them into my new 40 gal around 3-4 weeks ago moving over all my equipment also so my water stats are bob on still my 20gal was fishless cycled around 5 months ago.

Thanks