Best Conditions For Guppies?

[Fish_Man43]

Reading all the good information on this cool forum about salts not being good for long term use for fresh water fish and now i see this thread, about adding salt to fresh water fish? no wonder i get confused sometimes

 

[nmonks]

The world is a complicated place.

Salt is absolutely not recommended to standard community tanks. Mollies are not standard community fish though, and their maintenance is a constant source of trouble. Always has been. The thing to do is concentrate on the facts, not the impression. We're not talking about adding salt willy-nilly. For my part, I'm talking about using marine salt mix to raise carbonate hardness, steady pH, and detoxify nitrate and nitrate. These are all known benefits agreed upon by scientists and vets -- quite different to the slime coat and electrolyte nonsense characteristic of the hobby decades ago.

Livebearers evolved in the sea. They all have a high tolerance for saltwater. They are what we call secondary freshwater fish*. Most of the other fish groups are primary freshwater fish, e.g., tetras, barbs, minnows, gouramis, catfish, and loaches. Primary freshwater fish evolved in freshwater. They have little tolerance of saltwater. Mindless use of salt causes them stress in a way it does not cause secondary freshwater fish. There is 60+ years worth of research on this topic, and yet there are STILL some hobbyists who think adding salt to a freshwater aquarium is helpful. It is not.

Cheers, Neale

*Other secondary freshwater fish include killifish and cichlids, which also have a high tolerance for saltwater.

Reading all the good information on this cool forum about salts not being good for long term use for fresh water fish and now i see this thread, about adding salt to fresh water fish? no wonder i get confused sometimes

 

[OldMan47]

The euryhaline fish, fish that adapt readily to varying mineral content, are indeed limited in scope. Mollies that you find at your LFS are definitely among the most commonly found euryhaline fish. There is a big difference, in my mind, between fish that tolerate high salt content and fish that really need it. I do not find the mollies that I encounter really need the salt content that Neale likes for mollies. The real difference we are having, for those having a bit of trouble following the discussion, is not whether or not mollies can tolerate high salt concentrations. I think we both agree that they can. The difference is more along the lines of what is best to advise for new fishkeepers. I like to advise people keeping freshwater fish to stick with freshwater while Neale is saying that certain freshwater fish are better kept by new people in salty water. I cannot begin to refute his logic. It makes sense to me that it is easier to say add sea salt than to tell people how to achieve the needed conditions without adding sea salt. I am afraid this is more a difference in perception and practical approaches than in content. We both think that common mollies need a high pH, high mineral content water and merely disagree on the easiest way to achieve that.

 

[waterdrop]

There is a minor point in this interesting thread that is off-topic from the main molly discussion. Its the comment Neale made about the problem of crushed coral getting fouled up after a few years. Robby and I are interested in that topic and I'd like to pose the question among OM, Neale and Robby as to whether it might be a good idea to make a simple recommendation that when CC is used in a small amount in a mesh bag in the filter that it simply be a rule that it be tossed and replaced with fresh CC at the one-year mark. We have a few beginners around to whom we've recommended the CC approach and it would be nice to have this added recommendation if we all think it would be good.

Thanks, WD

 

[nmonks]

I'm not wild about relying entirely on crushed coral, but there are advantages to placing crushed coral in a media bag within a filter. If you clean the canister filter every couple of months, then simply washing the crushed coral in piping hot water should remove any organic detritus coating it. Nonetheless, you probably would need to replace the crushed coral eventually. The use of a pH or carbonate hardness test kit once every month or two should help determine the point when the crushed coral wasn't working, or if not enough had been used.

But with that said, space inside a canister filter containing clean crushed coral doesn't contain filter bacteria. By definition, biological and chemical filtration are mutually exclusive: when bacteria populations increase, surface area for chemical reactions decrease. This is why I prefer to use inexpensively made Rift Valley salt mix or marine salt mix to harden the water. It's predictable, cheap, and limited only by the frequency of water changes.

Cheers, Neale

There is a minor point in this interesting thread that is off-topic from the main molly discussion. Its the comment Neale made about the problem of crushed coral getting fouled up after a few years. Robby and I are interested in that topic and I'd like to pose the question among OM, Neale and Robby as to whether it might be a good idea to make a simple recommendation that when CC is used in a small amount in a mesh bag in the filter that it simply be a rule that it be tossed and replaced with fresh CC at the one-year mark. We have a few beginners around to whom we've recommended the CC approach and it would be nice to have this added recommendation if we all think it would be good.

Thanks, WD

 

[drobbyb]

I used crushed coral for a time to help stabilize my pH due to low mineral content in my tap water. It worked fine for that purpose. It dissolved at a predictable rate. For example: In my conditions it took the crushed coral 7 days to raise my pH a value of 0.5. At that point a water change was used to avoid a hardness shock situation. My tap water has a KH and GH of < 1 degree and a pH of 6.8. So testing shouldn't be limited to once a month until the user has determined how fast the CC will dissolve in their conditions. Cleaning of the CC was performed at every water change.

Now I'm not saying that CC is the route for everyone, but it is less expensive than the other methods IF you are able to maintain your tank properly.

Any thoughts?

 

[nmonks]

If you change the crushed coral inside the canister filter, and you add sufficient to buffer the water, then you should be fine. But by consuming space in the filter, you're diminishing its capacity for to remove silt or process ammonia.

There are pros and cons to everything of course. If you add the minerals to the water, that's fine provided water changes occur on schedule. But adding minerals to the water means there's a finite amount of carbonate hardness. If you have crushed coral, the reserve of carbonate hardness is so great as to be infinite for all practical purposes.

So, if you're lazy about water changes, but have a big enough filter that wasted space isn't an issue, then crushed coral is a good choice. But if you do water changes regularly and need to get the most from your filter, then adding the minerals to the water instead may be a better choice. Adding minerals gives you a way to set a specific general hardness and carbonate hardness level by tweaking the amounts of Epsom salt and baking soda. So however big the water change, the fish experience a constant set of conditions. Crushed coral doesn't do this because it dissolves over time, so if you do a big water change, and add soft water, your fish will experience a dramatic water change.

Cheers, Neale

Now I'm not saying that CC is the route for everyone, but it is less expensive than the other methods IF you are able to maintain your tank properly.
Any thoughts?

 

[drobbyb]

So, if you're lazy about water changes, but have a big enough filter that wasted space isn't an issue, then crushed coral is a good choice. But if you do water changes regularly and need to get the most from your filter, then adding the minerals to the water instead may be a better choice. Adding minerals gives you a way to set a specific general hardness and carbonate hardness level by tweaking the amounts of Epsom salt and baking soda. So however big the water change, the fish experience a constant set of conditions. Crushed coral doesn't do this because it dissolves over time, so if you do a big water change, and add soft water, your fish will experience a dramatic water change.

But wouldn't adding the "mixture" to the water result in a hardness shift? For most fish keepers, having a separate water storage system isn't a feasible option. In order to not have a hardness shift you would have to mix the solution separately before adding it to the tank. This isn't much of an issue if you have a small tank and like carrying water. For someone with a large tank this can be quite labor intensive and will take up a significant amount of space in their home.

I understand what you are saying about having constant conditions, but that is an option that may or may nor fit the fish keeper's situation or budget. What you are proposing is a great idea, if it can be implemented properly.

 

[nmonks]

But wouldn't adding the "mixture" to the water result in a hardness shift?

Err... that's the point! If you're keeping mollies, guppies or (almost) any other livebearer you want high general hardness and carbonate hardness. The latter is what raises and steadies the pH.

For most fish keepers, having a separate water storage system isn't a feasible option.

What? You fill a bucket with water. You stir in dechlorinator and the required Epsom salt, baking soda and marine salt mix. Add to the aquarium. Easy as pie.

In order to not have a hardness shift you would have to mix the solution separately before adding it to the tank.

Yes, just like making seawater for a marine aquarium. Easy.

This isn't much of an issue if you have a small tank and like carrying water. For someone with a large tank this can be quite labor intensive and will take up a significant amount of space in their home.

It's no more than throwing in a teaspoon or tablespoon of the necessary minerals per 5 gallons, along with the dechlorinator. It's very, VERY easy.

I understand what you are saying about having constant conditions, but that is an option that may or may nor fit the fish keeper's situation or budget. What you are proposing is a great idea, if it can be implemented properly.

I'm not sure you do understand what I'm saying, since you're making this sound complicated. It's not. That's the beauty of it. It's what people with Rift Valley cichlids have been doing for years.

Cheers, Neale

 

[drobbyb]

I'm not trying to tear apart what you are saying, I am trying to learn so that if this question arises again I will be able to explain all the different aspects.

Obviously keeping the hardness at a constant level is a good thing. I'm not refuting that. Your method is a good one if you like carrying buckets of water. Can't make my point any more clear than that.

No worries though, I won't say anything further.

 

[nmonks]

But this is the bit I don't understand. You're carrying the buckets of water ANYWAY when you do water changes. Adding a few teaspoons of mineral salts shouldn't make the buckets any heavier.

Am I misunderstanding your criticism here? By the way, I don't mind argument. Actually, I find it helps me become a better explainer, so I'm not being defensive or anything. Argue away!

Cheers, Neale

Obviously keeping the hardness at a constant level is a good thing. I'm not refuting that. Your method is a good one if you like carrying buckets of water. Can't make my point any more clear than that.

 

[OldMan47]

Indeed the chemical manipulation means nothing in terms of carrying water to the tank.
As Neale says, you have the opportunity of treating every water change as if it is the only one ever done on your tank. If you have decided to always increase your mineral content and hardness by a specific amount, you can indeed figure out what that means to a regular water change and make the adjustments there.

 

[drobbyb]

I understand your method just fine. I used to use a mixture of baking soda and epsom salts myself when I was keeping African cichlids with my soft water. Your method is a great one, I'm not trying to argue that.

I carried buckets of water for about 6 months, and 6 months carrying 5 gallon buckets of water from the tap to my tank was enough. After that I found this nifty invention called a Nospill made by Python. It attaches to your tap and allows you to adjust the temperature of the water by turning the knobs on your tap and fill your tank directly. No more carrying buckets! It's a very popular tool used by many fish keepers. However, this throws a wrench into your system and I was simply trying to see if there was another feasible way to buffer the tank's water.

When I used crushed coral, I was simply using it to prevent my pH from crashing between water changes. It worked beautifully as long as I didn't let the crushed coral change my hardness very much, controlled by water changes. I didn't know if the same would apply here, and obviously it wouldn't if your goal was to raise your hardness by a significant amount. The next time you did a large water change you would subject your fish to hardness shock.

So, this leaves the question: What method could a fish keeper use if they were using a water change system like the Nospill?

 

[nmonks]

Shouldn't make any difference at all. Just think through it carefully. Suppose you remove 25% of the water in your 20 gallon aquarium. That's 5 gallons of water. Add the dechlorinator to the aquarium, add the required amount of mineral salt mix for 5 gallons of water, and then top up the aquarium. No muss, no fuss.

Cheers, Neale

So, this leaves the question: What method could a fish keeper use if they were using a water change system like the Nospill?

 

[Brujo]

currently i have 3 guppies in a 3 gallon tank, they are really active and seem happy they show it by swimming arounf with their fins wide open, here are my water parameters

ammonia 0
nitrite 0
nitrate 10ppm
carbonate hardness 60
General hardness 180
PH 7.6
temp 78-80f


tap ph read at 7.0 goes up to 7.6 if i let it sit.

i have 2 fancy guppies and one mixed breed that looks like a pastel liretail version of a wild type, from my epxerience with guppies it seems that they will adapt to most water parameters as long as its consistent