At A Loss, Any Advice Appreciated..

[mg2]

Hello and thank you in advance for reading/helping,

Request Help

Tank size: 29 gallon
pH: 7.2
ammonia: 1.0
nitrite: 0
nitrate: 0
kH: ?
gH: ?
tank temp: 80

Fish Symptoms (include full description including lesion, color, location, fish behavior):
Over the course of 2 weeks they've had many symptoms at different times. I've layed it all out in detail after all of thse standard questions.

Volume and Frequency of water changes: Again, different at different times in the 2 week span. At the beginning, the pet store clerk told me to do a 50% change (which I now know I should not have done). Since then it's only been about a 17% change (about 5 gallons).

Chemical Additives or Media in your tank: Seachem Prime, Seachem Regulator, Stress Zyme, Stress Coat, Aquarium Salt, and for right now Kordon Rid-Ich. Filter has been taken out.

Tank inhabitants: Currently, 6 mollies. Details below.

Recent additions to your tank (living or decoration): Most recent were 2 dwarf gouramis and 2 Micky Mouse Platys--all died.

Exposure to chemicals: Unsure what is being asked, I listed chemical additives above.

In my own words:

I have a fairly new fish tank set up and things were going along great until about 2 weeks ago. Please bear with me because a lot has happened and I know I need to tell you everything in order for anyone to be able help.

Before I begin, the stats of the tank:
It's a 29 gallon tank, we had 14 fish (I know this is moot, but the fish store people told us we could have up to 15). We had 2 swordtails, 2 dwarf gouramis, 2 Micky Mouse platys, and 8 mollies. As of right now, our levels are as follows:
pH: 7.2, Ammonia: 1.0, Nitrite: 0, Nitrate: 0 and we are down to 6 fish--all mollies.

Okay, so the first thing that happened (2 weeks ago) was that some of the fish were kind of sitting on the gravel. They'd stir about when they got fed (and all of them ate) or when they thought they were getting fed (basically when anyone would approach the tank). So I asked the store clerk and he checked my levels and said everything was fine but the pH was "a little high" and to do a 50% water change. I know, I know--well, NOW I know I wasn't supposed to do that as the tank was only 3.5 weeks old at the time.
But I did it--my mistake, I know--I just didn't know what was wrong and took his advice at face value.
Anyway, after I did that nothing got better. Actually more fish starting "sitting" at the bottom so I took another water sample into a different store--she said the same thing, levels are fine, try a water change (this time it was more like 25% not 50%, but I didn't do it). From here, I took yet ANOTHER sample into a specialty store this time--not a generic pet store. They did the chemical tests on the sample and said my ammonia was a little high and my pH was low (at a 6.0).
They had me buy Prime and Neutral Regulator (both Seachem brand). So I did as they said and bought a test kit for myself.
At this point, my levels..well, "leveled" out for the most part. My ammonia still reads high, but they keep telling me it will but since I've put Prime in it, it's a "false positive."
Still with me?? So sorry for the long post, I just want to be clear with what's going on.
Alright, so after my levels worked their way to a good place...I started noticing the white spots. Mind you, I've been losing fish throughout this whole process. Every couple of days I'll lose one. Anyway, so ich. I went and bought Kordon Rid-Ich Plus and have been treating the tank daily with it. The white spots went away (not before taking a couple of my fish with them though). And I'm in the last few days of treatment now as the directions say to treat for 3-4 days after the last white spots are seen.
So now we'll back up a bit to about a week ago: treating for ich, taken the filter out, etc...and one of my mollies gets a crooked spine. I ask people and they say everything from intestinal parasite (Collumanus) to the ammonia level being too high to swim bladder to dropsy. I'm so confused!
Anyway, she was the only one with this crooked spine and though it was sad to see her swim about, she held on for a little over a week. She'd eat normally and swim about but she died today. Now another molly, who did not have a crooked spine yesterday, seems to be starting to have one now.
I check my levels every other day and everything seems fine except the ammonia. At the same point, I do use Prime so I don't know. And as a side, I have put aquarium salt in the water as well. And I've done about a 17% water change every other day (yes, 17% because I the Rid-Ich bottle says 25% but everyone I've spoke to told me not to take that much out--cycling/biological filters, etc...and for math purposes, 17% is about 5 gallons, which helps when I add Prime, Stress Zyme, Stress Coat, Regulator, and salt back into the new water--it just helps me get a better measure of the things I need to add to the water).

So that's it. We are down to 6 fish. 5 look pretty good, but that one molly worries me. And more than that, I'm worried that this crooked spine thing is contagious since 2 of them got it. The crooked spined molly does swim a little sporadically at times too, I hope she's not in pain.

I think that's it. I was as detailed as I could be, I think, but please let me know if you need to know anything else. I have noticed some of them hanging around at the heater a bit more than before--not sure if that matters.

Oh--I did do an ammonia and pH check on my tap water--I'm telling you, I'm just trying to get to the bottom of this! Tap water pH is at about a 7.6 and 0 ammonia.

Lastly, if someone on here is going to suggest a medication please be aware that the Rid-Ich is still in the tank water and I'd need something that could mix with that (don't want to OD my fish!)

Thank you so, so, so much for reading and helping. I'm at a complete loss here! This aquarium was a birthday present for my mom and I feel like I'm killing all her fish!

Thanks again! ANY help would be appreciated!

 

[the_lock_man]

It sounds as though you don't know too much about the Nitrogen Cycle.
 
The basics are that your fish produce ammonia, which is poisonous. In your filter, you grow some bacteria which turns the ammonia into nitrite, which is also poisonous. In your filter, you grow some different bacteria which turns the nitrite into nitrate, which in sensible quantities is not poisonous. OK, it's a bit more complicated than that, but that's enough to be going on with. You don't have those bacteria colonies, and thus you are having the problem of high ammonia.
 
With an ammonia level of 1ppm, the fish are getting poisoned, this is what has caused the deaths, and allowed the ich to take hold, and probably caused the bent spines as well.
 
First thing, is to allow the Rid-Ich to do its thing, wait until the instructions say that the course of meds has finished.
 
Then you need to get yourself into a routine of testing your water and changing it daily. You need to keep the ammonia level (and in time, the nitrite level too) down as close to 0ppm as you possibly can. When you test your water, if you see anything from 0ppm to 0.5ppm of ammonia or nitrite, change 50% of the water. If you see anything from 0.5ppm to 1ppm, change 90% of the water. If you see over 1ppm, do multiple water changes until you test again and see the level at 0ppm.
 
Don't change any of your filter media when doing water changes. This is bad practice, as you would be throwing away the good bacteria that you have built up. Manufacturers often include this in their instructions - they are profit-driven, it means you keep buying their products which you simply don't need. Only change floss or sponges when they are in tatters. You never need to change ceramics.
 
Now, my advice above is contradictory to advice you've been given previously, so I feel the need to justify why I am right, and the rest of the world is wrong (!) All the people you have talked to, that say don't change much water, they are saying this on the assumption that having lots of ammonia in the water will allow the filter to cycle quickly, and if you have no ammonia there, then the filter won't cycle.
 
Yes and no.
 
Yes the filter will cycle quicker with lots of ammonia. No, the filter will still cycle with only trace ammonia in the water, it will just take longer. The major benefit, to my way of thinking, though, is that you don't have dead fish, you don't lower their immunity so that things like ich take hold. Yes it will be a long hard slog, I'm not saying it won't, it will take you 6 weeks and more. But you won't be being cruel to your fish.
 
For a bit more of a detailed description of the process you need to follow, click the green link in my signature area, and if you have any more queries, please feel free to ask.

 

[Metka]

Very well put Lock man, great advice there.
 
Nothing else I want to add, only that it's unfortunate that you fell into the beginners trap. But with some hard work and dedication over the next few weeks you can regain the lost ground.
 
Oh, one thing to keep in mind. Once you have your tank 'cycled', do not add too many fish at once. It will cause the ammonia to spike and you'll be back in this situation again. Slowly but surely add fish, a couple every week or two, while keeping an eye on the water levels.

 

[Ch4rlie]

The Lock Man has explained things extremely well and am in 100% agreement with him.
 
DO follow his advice to the letter as I believe he is very experienced in fishkeeping and knows his stuff while I am a mere newbie!
 
But was thinking along the same lines as him anyway that your tank is not cycled properly thus this is affecting your fish in your tank.
 
Sorry you had some bad advice from some people but you are now on the right tracks, believe me, and things will definitely improve, just gotta do a bit of work or a month or two before things will settle down and will be worth it.
 
Good luck!
 
Oh and welcome to TFF by the way 

 

[Meeresstille]

Hello, and welcome mg2!
If you have a look at some other posts all over the Forum you will see many, many posts that are similar to yours. So, don't feel bad, in fact, I think by following the shops' advice and running into problems such as yours is how most people find their way here. 
 
Good for you to have purchased a testing kit, you will need it a lot while cycling your tank. Have a look here: http/www.fishforums.net/index.php?/topic/277264-beginners-resource-center/ and keep asking if you need help!

 

[mg2]

Okay, I get what you all are saying but I have a few more questions.
I completely understood the whole cycling thing before adding fish and only added a few per week (as recommended). I'm just unsure how I got into this mess. Things were going along fine (really fine) until I added the last 4 fish. That's when everything went south...fast. One of the new ones died within 24 hours.
Also, to be clear (again, just to give/get accurate info)-I only took the filter out when I started to Rid-Ich treatment because the bottle specifically stated to do so.

Another question: the ammonia--what is the deal with Prime? If it gives a "false positive" how do I know what the actual level is?

And the water change: I hear what you are saying about doing a 90% change but my question is this: the reason people (not the Petsmart guys, but other "hobbyists" and specialty fish store people) told me not to do a big water change was because of the biological filters or bacteria or some such thing. They said that the "ecosystem" in the tank finally got started right and by changing that much water, I restarted it and stressed the fish.

Please don't think I'm arguing with you, I'm really just quite confused. I guess what I'm really asking is, if I do a big change like that will I be stressing the fish or changing too much of their "ecosystem" while they are in this weak state?

Another thing is the water change itself. I know some of this is elementary, but now that I'm in this mess I'd rather get too much detail, than not enough and make another mistake. So the changes--how would you go about doing a 90% change? The tank is not near a sink and up until now I've been using 2 gallon buckets, which takes a minute but it's fine. My question really is about the water I put back into it.
How long does it need to sit with proper chemicals before I add it into the tank? And let's say I change 20 gallons out and mathematically I need to add 2 tablespoons of a certain chemical into the new 20 gallons of water (I know this is wrong, these are just example figures). Can I add all 2 tablespoons into 5 gallons, then add 15 gallons of untreated water as the rest? Or do I need to split the 2 tablespoons between the entire 20 gallons of new water?
I know logically it will all mix about when added to the tank, but I just want to do this right.

And my last question (for now at least): ammonia. I understand "where" it comes from, what I don't understand is how to keep it down. I know about water changes and overcrowding and overfeeding, but is there anything else?? Though I haven't (obviously) done everything perfectly, I feel I've stayed very close to the parameters set out (adding fish slowly, only feeding enough for them to eat within 2-3 minutes, doing weekly 20%-25% water changes). I not only want to fix it for now, but I want to learn so I don't let it happen again.

Okay, this is for real my last question: so in your opinion(s), they do not have a disease that's causing the bent spines, right? I know they have/had ich, but really the source of everything is ammonia?? (Again, just learning here and trying to be clear, I want to do right by them...and if it is ammonia, I'm assuming no meds/chemicals need to be bought?)

Thank you so much!




 

 

[mg2]

Just read through the link in your signature and have one question:

It states, "once levels for ammonia and nitrite have been 0 and nitrate has been rising, you are cycled for that fish load, and you are ready for a few more fish, space allowing...."

But, in the last 2 weeks (approximately), I have not hit a point where nitrate was rising. It's been at 0 this whole time. I imagine that's a problem?? And if so, what should I do? The only number that's changed at all was ammonia--going from .25 to 1.0 (back and forth, rising and lowering between those numbers). And my pH varied between 7.0 and 7.6. But Nitrate AND Nitrite have stayed at 0 (as I've written it down every time--doing tests every other day).

Thoughts??

 

 

[the_lock_man]

Okay, I get what you all are saying but I have a few more questions.
I completely understood the whole cycling thing before adding fish and only added a few per week (as recommended). I'm just unsure how I got into this mess. Things were going along fine (really fine) until I added the last 4 fish. That's when everything went south...fast. One of the new ones died within 24 hours.
Also, to be clear (again, just to give/get accurate info)-I only took the filter out when I started to Rid-Ich treatment because the bottle specifically stated to do so.

Another question: the ammonia--what is the deal with Prime? If it gives a "false positive" how do I know what the actual level is? It depends on what type of testing kit you are using as to whether you get a false positive or not. If you have one of the salicylate tests (that's the chemical process, not the brand name) you need to wait a few days, and then run the test. I can't remember which brands use that system.

And the water change: I hear what you are saying about doing a 90% change but my question is this: the reason people (not the Petsmart guys, but other "hobbyists" and specialty fish store people) told me not to do a big water change was because of the biological filters or bacteria or some such thing. They said that the "ecosystem" in the tank finally got started right and by changing that much water, I restarted it and stressed the fish. Complete and utter tosh. Sorry. Water changes are the aquarist's friend. I stand by what I said earlier.

Please don't think I'm arguing with you, I'm really just quite confused. I guess what I'm really asking is, if I do a big change like that will I be stressing the fish or changing too much of their "ecosystem" while they are in this weak state? It's fine, ask as many questions as you like. The reason your fish are stressed is the ammonia. Until you grow the bacteria, the only way to reduce ammonia levels in the tank is by changing water.

Another thing is the water change itself. I know some of this is elementary, but now that I'm in this mess I'd rather get too much detail, than not enough and make another mistake. So the changes--how would you go about doing a 90% change? The tank is not near a sink and up until now I've been using 2 gallon buckets, which takes a minute but it's fine. My question really is about the water I put back into it.
How long does it need to sit with proper chemicals before I add it into the tank? And let's say I change 20 gallons out and mathematically I need to add 2 tablespoons of a certain chemical into the new 20 gallons of water (I know this is wrong, these are just example figures). Can I add all 2 tablespoons into 5 gallons, then add 15 gallons of untreated water as the rest? Or do I need to split the 2 tablespoons between the entire 20 gallons of new water?
I know logically it will all mix about when added to the tank, but I just want to do this right.
You can either add all 2 tablespoons into the tank, then add the water, or you can add the proportion of conditioner into each bucket individually - the latter is what I do. I actually add the conditioner into the bucket, then poor the water in, so I know that the conditioner is well and truly mixed, but I think I'm worrying too much on that score. The conditioner works instantly, you don't need to let it sit at all.

And my last question (for now at least): ammonia. I understand "where" it comes from, what I don't understand is how to keep it down. I know about water changes and overcrowding and overfeeding, but is there anything else?? Though I haven't (obviously) done everything perfectly, I feel I've stayed very close to the parameters set out (adding fish slowly, only feeding enough for them to eat within 2-3 minutes, doing weekly 20%-25% water changes). I not only want to fix it for now, but I want to learn so I don't let it happen again. No there isn't really anything else substantive. Adding live plants helps, but it doesn't remove the need for bacteria and water changes.

Okay, this is for real my last question: so in your opinion(s), they do not have a disease that's causing the bent spines, right? I know they have/had ich, but really the source of everything is ammonia?? (Again, just learning here and trying to be clear, I want to do right by them...and if it is ammonia, I'm assuming no meds/chemicals need to be bought?) That's right.

Thank you so much!
 

 
No problems - you can see my specific answers.
 
One question though - have you ever thrown away any part of your filter (sponges, pads, floss, etc.) ?

 

[Meeresstille]

You were doing a fish-in cycling! When you do a fish-in cycling, you don't add any new fish to the tank until your filter is able to convert the fish's waste and you no longer have any ammonia readings in the water. Then it is safe to add one or two fish, and again don't add anything until there are no longer any readings of ammonia, meaning your filter is now able to take care of all your fish's bio-load. It sounds to me that you added new fish too soon and and combined with insufficient water changes the ammonia build up more and more until it started to damage the fish's organs and caused deaths.
 
When you do a fish-in cycling you need to do water changes to remove the ammonia. It is sometimes difficult to determine how much of the ammonia reading comes from the harmful form of ammonia since the tests read the combination of ammonia and ammonium (safe form). The actual amount of harmful ammonia in your tank depends on the reading itself plus pH and temperature of the water. Depending on your test kit you may have a little conversion table helping you calculate it. The safest thing for your fish is to keep the ammonia levels as close to 0 as you can! So, water changes, water changes, water changes!
 
Another issue is, whenever you add new fish without quarantining them first you always run the risk of introducing diseases and parasites to the tank that can potentially wipe out all the fish in your tank. Also, stressed fish have a lowered immune-system that makes them more susceptible to these illnesses. High levels of ammonia and/or nitrite can stress fish, new additions to the tank can stress fish, wrong stocking, wrong temperature of the water, fluctuating pH levels, busy location of the tank....
 
I hope this helped a little explain what happened with your tank.

 

[mg2]

the_lock_man: thank you so much for all your prompt and detailed answers!
The chemical testing kit I have is the API Freshwater brand. I know you mentioned not remembering which one used the salicylate tests, but I thought I'd mention which test kit I was using anyway.

Okay, all of that makes sense. I will get on doing the water change today.

Let me ask you this though--the original 50% change I did--that didn't cause these issues then? It was probably an ammonia issue to begin with I take it.

To answer your question, I have not thrown away any part of my filter. Just taken the carbon filter out while I did the ich treatment. I still have it and was going to put it back in after the treatment was over--is this okay or do I need a brand new one?


 

 

[Ch4rlie]

API Freshwater Test Kit is fine
 
Although whether that makes any difference in ammonia readings or gives false readings when using Prime, I'd like to know this myself as I use Prime also. Lets hope Lock Man can answer this one.
 
Your original 50% water change absolutely did NOT cause these issues, in fact you probably improved the water quality and lowered the ammonia levels a bit. It was always an ammonia issue I believe.
 
Good, do not throw away any of your filter, keep them until starts to fall apart, although do give them (half at a time, not all filter at once) a very gentle rinse in old tank water every once in a while to get rid of some gunk.
 
Carbon filter, well I don't use any in my filter at all, believe after a few weeks they become pretty much useless!!
Either throw them away and replace with more filter sponge or store them somewhere until you need them for medication purposes.

 

[mg2]

Thanks for replying Ch4rlie! And for being so kind--I've been beating myself up over this for days! And really good to know that the 50% change did not hurt them. I got such grief from fish people after I did it!

So, don't ever rinse the filter in tap water right? I didn't rinse it at all today--it had been out for a while due to the ich treatment, but I did put it back in after the water change.

Also, I did about an 85% water change, adding the appropriate amounts of chemicals and salt (though I'm a little afraid my calculations went awry at some point and I might have added a little too much salt--do I need to do something about that?) I have mollies in there and have been told a little extra salt for them is not bad but since you all seem to know so much I thought I'd ask here.

My levels as of tonight:
pH: 7.6
Nitrate: 0
Nitrite: 0
Ammonia: somewhere between 0 and.25 (just a hint of a change depending on how the light hits it). At least this is a lot better than where I was earlier today (at 1)

Now the fish: Like I said, we have 6 left. Five of them seem happy. More active than I've seen them in the last week or so for sure. But that one--the one that started looking like it was getting a crooked spine, she's not happy. She's sitting at the bottom of the tank more than she was before. I'm assuming she may be too far affected by the ammonia issues to be saved, but is there anything I can do to help her? Maybe raise her chances of survival in some way? Or might it take a day or so for her body to acclimate to the new levels (drastically lower than before) in the water?

Thanks again!

One more thing to add: the molly who is starting to get the bent spine: it's not totally bent like the one before, it just looks like it's starting to get that way. And when she does swim, which isn't often, she swims kind of vertically. I'm really hoping she'll take to this change and her body will rebalance or get better however it needs to...just hoping maybe it's taking a while, but that it will happen.


 

 

[mg2]

Alright, so it's been a few hours since the water change and all the levels are looking good. However, the fish are not. The vertical swimmer/bent(ish) spined one looks like she's having a hard time breathing and has, what looks like, a white string hanging from her.
And another one, that was 100% fine a little while ago (at least outwardly so), has something going on with his eye. The best way for me to explain it is to say it looks like cateracts. I'm not saying that's what it is, just what it looks like. It's only one eye, and he's acting fine (swimming about, ate just fine).

I'm very concerned and confused. Does this mean there actually is some sort of a virus or bacterial infection type thing going on? Again--pH, nitrate, nitrite, and ammonia are all fine (pH: 7.6 still, and everything else is at 0).

Please help!!!! (And thanks!)

 

[Blondielovesfish]

to the forum.
 
Sorry you have gotten off to a bad start in fish keeping, it is a very rewarding hobby once everything starts going right
 
Ammonia is definitely the problem, at your pH, you have more of the harmful ammonia than the safe ammonium. Whenever you see the ammonia over 0.5ppm, you need to do a water change to get it lower. Although ammonia is harmful, you need to have some for your cycle, or else it could take forever!
It sounds like all these problems you're having now, were caused by the long exposure to ammonia your fish experienced.
Lethargy and heavy breathing are all signs of ammonia poisoning Whenever you see these signs, do a water change. IME, this helps a lot.
 
White, stringy poo means internal parasites I'm afraid. Which ones, I have no clue. Once you ICH treatment is finished, you will need to get some internal parasite medication.
 
How is your ICH going? Is it beginning to clear up?
 
For the eye problem, have a google of "pop eye" and see if it looks anything like what your fish has.
 
If you can get some mature filter media (either from a friend or a nice LFS) then that will help a lot with your problems. Another thing that would help would be either Tetra's Safe Start or Dr. Tim's One and Only, these contain the bacteria we want in our filters to convert the ammonia to nitrite to nitrate.
One more thing that would help would be if you could get lots of fast growing, stem plants. As these grow, they remove the ammonia from the water and use it as fertilizer.
 
The fact that you have no nitrite or nitrate means that you do not yet have the bacteria in your filter that breaks down the ammonia into nitrite and then to nitrate.

 

[the_lock_man]

API Freshwater Test Kit is fine
 
Although whether that makes any difference in ammonia readings or gives false readings when using Prime, I'd like to know this myself as I use Prime also. Lets hope Lock Man can answer this one.
 
Your original 50% water change absolutely did NOT cause these issues, in fact you probably improved the water quality and lowered the ammonia levels a bit. It was always an ammonia issue I believe.
 
Good, do not throw away any of your filter, keep them until starts to fall apart, although do give them (half at a time, not all filter at once) a very gentle rinse in old tank water every once in a while to get rid of some gunk.
 
Carbon filter, well I don't use any in my filter at all, believe after a few weeks they become pretty much useless!!
Either throw them away and replace with more filter sponge or store them somewhere until you need them for medication purposes.

 
I've never used the API tests, so I'm not sure, but I think it might be.
 
Re the carbon filter, if it's been used for more than a few weeks, then please bin it. Buy a new one, and keep it in the cupboard for the future. Buy some new sponge or floss, and put that in instead. At the moment, you'll be doing a lot of water changes, and that will remove the Rid-Ich from the water. Once you are through this, in the future, you will probably have some sort of medical issue, and will be dosing that tank again. Once that medication is finished, add that carbon filter for 3 weeks, to remove the medication, and then bin it and buy a new one.
 

So, don't ever rinse the filter in tap water right?
 

 
Did you do that previously? I've been wondering why you suddenly had problems, and it could be that rinsing immature bacteria in chlorinated tapwater killed them, and caused this current problem.